Do Elite Colleges Discriminate Against Asian Students?

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<p>It’s not correct to call a student who requested a federal Department of Education Office of Civil Rights inquiry into Princeton’s admission practices a “student who sued Princeton.” Nobody has sued Princeton. But the federal office inquiry is still open as of the time of the last news report </p>

<p>[Department</a> of Education expands inquiry into Jian Li bias case - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/09/08/21307/]Department”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/09/08/21307/) </p>

<p>with no announced conclusion yet, and that office exists for students who know their rights </p>

<p>[Know</a> Your Rights](<a href=“http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/know.html]Know”>Know Your Rights) </p>

<p>to send complaints to. </p>

<p>(I wouldn’t call the student stupid, either, inasmuch as he was admitted to Yale as a freshman and to Harvard as a transfer undergraduate student, both very tough admission challenges to overcome for anybody.)</p>

<p>Caltech still maintains a modicum of meritocracy and it’s not 90% Asians.</p>

<p>[College</a> Search - California Institute of Technology - CALTECH - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)</p>

<p>Instead of speculating, let’s read Espenshade’s study:

The fear of an “Asian Invasion” (sorry, I couldn’t resist!) is unsubstantiated.</p>

<p>Quite simply, until Asians become the best athletes and are more often the offspring of wealthy legacies, their percentages at top private colleges won’t go up.</p>

<p>To the asians: Suck it up. I’m an asian international student who doesn’t have enough money to even pay 1/3 of a private college’s tuition. Do you honestly think I have a chance? And yet you don’t see me whining. Life’s not fair. Did you not learn about that when you went through, oh I don’t know, life?</p>

<p>And from an Asian point, who have spoken to many teachers and professors about the state of our education today: if universities did not have a race factor bias, most of the universities would be FILLED with asians. Consider China and Korea’s educational system. China, and Korea have one of the THE best educational systems in the world. The students of America, and Canada, however well off they are, cannot hope to compete with the work ethic of the state drive education of Korea and CHina. Korea and China drive their students to the limit (not saying that’s the best thing, but it’s fact), while AMerica and Canada I believe take a more laid back look of education, especially government funded schools. My home province in Canada literally has the worst educational system as my math teacher calls it, who has taught all over the province, in universities, and out of the province everywhere, who has been teaching for more than 30 years, mainly because the educational system is driven by politicians, not teachers themselves. America and Canada are in one heck of a hole in their educational systems. Again please note that I am not stereotyping all the schools in one. I acknowledge that there are definitely schools out there that know what they’re doing, who take education seriously. </p>

<p>In the end, race will always be a factor in anything. Everyone needs to learn to live with it.</p>

<p>No way blacks and Latinos and other minorities should have argued for equal rights. We should let them know they should be IN THEIR PLACE! (I hope no one takes me seriously on this)</p>

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[QUOTE=TheyCallMeCC ]
if colleges didn’t discriminate, the top 20 or so would be composed of students who are, approximately, 80% asian, 15% white, 5% other. sorry, but it’s just true.

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<p>I can’t tell if this is hyperbole, but even if it isn’t I feel compelled to correct it. From the article quoted by the thread starter:
“White applicants would benefit very little by removing racial and ethnic preferences; the white acceptance rate would increase by roughly 0.5 percentage points. Asian applicants would gain the most. They would occupy four out of every five seats created by accepting fewer African-American and Hispanic students. The acceptance rate for Asian applicants would rise by one-third from nearly 18 percent to more than 23 percent.”</p>

<p>I don’t really sympathize with people making a big row out of this. Private universities can and should be able to choose to accept whoever they think will help their university the most. Secondly, anyone who complains that going to (insert less select school) and not (insert marginally more selective school) kept them from reaching their goals is just making excuses.</p>

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And that is the type of ignorant complacency that fueled slavery and discrimination in America for hundreds of years.</p>

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<p>Thanks for reading the whole post, and than taking a strawman argument, with that last bit of a post. </p>

<p>I was not advocating racism. Nor was I advocating complacency. I am advocating a fair system where each and every person gets their fair share (I am an international asian trying to get into an American university, how could I NOT favour a race blind admission process?). However, I am simply disagreeing with people who continually try to find scapegoats with their applications, especially asians, blaming it on race. Race is a factor in anything, how the hell do you change the judgmental human nature? A man hiring for a job, might overlook some qualities of a man just because he’s black. Is it fair? No. Will we be able to go into that person’s mind and change it? No. We can continue to fight for fair equality, but in the end, racism will never be wiped out.</p>

<p>Just noting that if you assume that half the internationals and half of those not reporting their race are, in fact, Asian, then the percentage of Asians at both UCBerkeley and CalTech approaches 50%.</p>

<p>I’m not sure that racial diversity is in fact achieved at hundreds of colleges throughout America without deliberate effort or consideration. Or at all. And if it is, what it actually might represent is “socioeconmic parity,” meaning that a sufficient proportion of people from differing races achieved sufficient socioeconomic autonomy to live in sufficiently funded suburban school districts with sufficient environmental stimulus and nutritional/biological stimulus, opportunity and attention to develop their innate potential to a level acceptable to meet admission requirements.</p>

<p>I think, or would like to hope, that intelligent adcoms recognize that there are a number of indicators or dimensions of intelligence, some of which are directly connected to the availability of resources, some of which reflect different approaches to learning and some of which can or might be biologically determined, others which may be encultured. So, rightly or wrongly, rather than packaging a product, I would suspect their intent would be to evaluate the level of effort and capacity to actualize potential a student has exerted in the context of their social environment, and to rightly or wrongly attempt to equalize what often begins as an unequal playing field.</p>

<p>That is not to say that I agree with the outcome of these measures or considerations, this social handicapping, particularly where merit appears to go unrewarded. I just don’t think the root cause is as cynical as some posters here suggest.</p>

<p>I keep thinking of that study that was released last year that showed that Asian families were, on balance, more likely to spend several hours a day discussing ideas, reviewing homework, and generally educating their children because that was a cultural priority and viewed to be a principal responsibility of parenting. And then I read about how many blacks there are living in single parented and impoverished homes, where usually a mom is working crazy hours to make ends meet while residents in urban neighborhoods don’t have the tax base (or the support of other urban residents) to receive as much school funding, yet have to spend even more money on students falling through the cracks. And then I notice the white suburbans, in a two-income household, who hire a tutor, go to PTA meetings, and pay for 6 rounds of the SATs. These are gross stereotypes – and it’s very true you can mix and match the conditions of each situation and race (I for example, have lived variations of all the themes) – but the stereotypes exist because there is a glimmer of trend underlying them, or was once. In my example here, I am merely illustrating the potential conditions numerically possibly in a given community, not a defacto claim, and I do so only to illustrate what I suspect are the underpinnings of the admission results we’re discussing.</p>

<p>So, all three of the kids have the innate potential to be great scholars. Some people thrive in adversity. Others learn to manipulate and exploit. Some are hard workers. Some expect someone else to do the work and operate from a sense of entitlement. Those characteristics will to some extent flow from the style of parenting and life events or encounters these students might have.</p>

<p>So, let’s take the white kid from the state’s top ranked (double per capita funding) school district, six prep tests, the availability of AP classes, the paid tutor, the teachers who like their jobs, and see how they do on the SAT. No one would get terribly excited about an 1150, I’m afraid.</p>

<p>Take the Asian kid, who has spend about double the time learning and discussing things over the last 18 years, whether in the urban or suburban setting, who has been given high expectations to meet and the understanding that it is their JOB to be a student. No one would get terribly excited about an 1150, again. It would not benchmark superior achievement within the opportunities available. </p>

<p>Take the single-parented black kid, who may have been latchkey since grade 3, who’s mom tells him to do his homework, say out of trouble, loves him a lot and gives him all the affection she can spare, but who just doesn’t have the time in the day to be teacher and doesn’t have the money to hire one. Have this kid score an 1150 – single sitting – at an underfunded and underperforming school where he ranks in the top 10%. Maybe he has a 4.0. Maybe he’s gone as far as he can go in his environment and is hungry for more. This kid volunteers at the food kitchen, plays in the school band, spearheaded a group for urban revitalization.</p>

<p>Who do you pick to admit?</p>

<p>Me, in my mind, I can pick all three. Because every child in this country should have the opportunity, whatever his or her background, race, or socioeconomic class, to actualize his or her potential to its full extent – to my mind. A SAT test that’s biased to English speaking visual/literal intelligence does not tell me the whole story about a human. Which is NOT to say that you don’t have to be very good at all the things you ultimately do on a SAT test in order to do well at a top school. </p>

<p>I don’t know. Some days the problems seem just too big to solve. The root of all this is so old and so often corrupted I feel like we just can’t seem to dig it out without killing the tree.
Other days, I remember we will evolve : )</p>

<p>The day when we don’t have to THINK about affirmative action is the day we will have truly beat racism.</p>

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<p>lol k</p>

<p>Why in the world is this so relevant to you that you go all this way to point something like this out?</p>

<p>People against AA are just looking for people to be treated equally at a very small institution (of AA). Is it so offensive to you that they are complaining about one little thing?</p>

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<p>Comparing upper middle-class Asians and poorer blacks isn’t really the way to go on debating the issue.</p>

<p>But seriously everyone, if we got rid of every form of AA, who would it really hurt? I’m thinking diversity would be the only thing to be affected.</p>

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Hmm…

You can’t. Humans are imperfect, often irrational beings; that is simply nature. But what CAN be avoided is institutionalizing those ideas. I don’t think innate racial judgments can ever be effectively destroyed, but at the same time it is important that we understand that just because they may be innate doesn’t mean that they are what’s right and inevitable.</p>

<p>Or they could change their names to minority sounding names. I do know of an Asian guy who married a hispanic and he changed his name. It would be easier for his kids to get in to Houston ISD magnet program.</p>

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We are incorporating far more than ethnicity in this experiment. Rather than exemplify an Asian and African-American student through stereotypes, let’s compare them, differing only with race and perhaps the cultural differences caused by race (this includes similarities in income, opportunities, location, etc):</p>

<p>Asian kid with 1150 on the SAT. Lives in the ghetto; low-income household. Parents push him to succeed but they have little means of enforcement (remember, when all things are equal, poor Asian parents living in ghettos have to work laborious jobs too). Nevertheless, the kid studies hard in school; 4.0 GPA at a weak public high.</p>

<p>Black kid with 1150 on the SAT. Lives in the ghetto; low-income household. Parents push him to succeed but they have little means of enforcement, tending laborious jobs every day of the week. Nevertheless, the kid studies hard in school; 4.0 GPA at a weak public high.</p>

<p>Notice what I did there? The fact is that you can use race to generalize (and I mean very poorly generalize) the trends of each ethnicity, or you can simply incorporate a system that DIRECTLY takes into account circumstances that DIRECTLY lead to advantage/disadvantage. I am all for a nuanced sort of socioeconomic AA (now whether it is practical or not is another debate), and that system would likely benefit African-Americans more than any other group through correlation. But when you literally say, “oh, this applicant is black so let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he faced a tough upbringing,” or when you say, “oh, this kid is a soulless math grind (a freaking former MIT dean said that) who is the byproduct of his parent’s constant pushing,” you are not only being racist but you create an unreasonable system of advantages and disadvantages that were never meant to be.</p>

<p>To generalize is to be an idiot.</p>

<p>CC has officially run out of ideas for new threads.</p>

<p>Colleges are a business. These institutions need to keep their endowments up. They do that by having lots of school spirit (selectivity via tests scores and sports probably bring in most cash). I don’t know, but do Asians traditionally give oodles of cash to their alma mater the way Jews and WASPs have been known to?</p>

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Kind of hard to definitively say considering Asian success at top colleges is still a relatively recent topic. But there’s little reason to assume that Asians would be less likely to provide endowments.</p>

<p>I wasn’t assuming the adcoms were generalizing. I was assuming they were evaluating each application holistically in a context that included financial information, knowledge of the school district, postal code, context content from essays, teacher reccs eta al and somehow arrived at an admit decision for a black student with an 1150 but not an admit for an asian student with an 1150.</p>

<p>We only seem to have the ratio of races admitted to the school. There is not really a way to quantify the qualitative aspects of the application. But I can see the danger of generalization in favor of AA, and agree that at times it does seem like an unreasonable system of advantages and disadvantages have been created.
I just don’t think that’s actually what anyone meant.</p>