<p>as long as they are a URM. If you're asian or white, then brilliance is necessary.</p>
<p>I don't know what you are quantifying as brilliance. I know many kids accepted to Harvard last year and this year. They are smart kids but not off putting or overwhelming in their "brilliance".</p>
<p>Oh, by the way they are mostly white or asian.</p>
<p>"my point is that African Americans, Hispanics, Native Amercans and such have to be LESS brilliant that Asians and whites. Their expectations are lower cause colleges want them so badly, and their under represented."</p>
<p>And your standards of brilliance are based on, what, SAT scores? The number of AP classes these students have taken?</p>
<p>It's really unbelievable that you said "LESS brilliant" so emphatically. I wonder if you know how this makes you sound. Are you saying that the minority students at top colleges aren't as brilliant as their white/asian classmates because it isn't expected of them? Am I really supposed to believe that when I go to Harvard I won't be as brilliant as my white/asian classmates because the college was so desperate for some color that it admitted me even if I am below its standards? And Yale, too? And now, NYU?</p>
<p>I often wonder if the people who make these kinds of comments really consider the the effect they have on the minorities like me who happen to read them.</p>
<p>how is the unweighted more than the weighted??</p>
<p>saxfreq1128, what is your definition of brilliance? My point is that URM's expections are lower. Now if you say that's not true, then you're being self-deceiving. Yes, some afs, hispanics and all are as brilliant as whites, but most aren't. Not saying it's do to competency or racial inferiorty, just saying their expectations are lower cause their average for everything os lower.</p>
<p>whatever, i'm not gonna argue with people who take offense so easily anymore.</p>
<p>"Yes, some afs, hispanics and all are as brilliant as whites, but most aren't."</p>
<p>Most minorities aren't as brilliant as whites? </p>
<p>How can you say this and expect me not to be offended? You're disgusting.</p>
<p>Instead of getting offended and throwing insults at him, why don't you address the issues at hand here? By the way, he means URMs, not all minorities (i.e., he is not referring to Jews or Asians).</p>
<p>URMs have, on average, lower SAT scores and GPA. Why is that, and why wouldn't those factors be indicative of an overall lower level of academic achievement and aptitude in URMs?</p>
<p>Before you go apenuts on me, I'm just playing Devil's advocate here.</p>
<p>um im a urm and im pretty sure my awards and scores cud kick ur @$$ any day so wats ur point. the whole reason y minorities may hav lower test scores is cuz of poverty and hardship...you wud hav lower scores too if u cudnt afford an SAT tutor and had teachers who never come to class...its easy to sit back in your 2 million dollar suburb house and cry about the fact that a lil black girl with 1230 SAT got into harvard over you but reallythat girl deserves that spot and quite frankly needs that spot way more than u do in order to get out of her situation... SO to Seth Blue I hope a URM like me takes your place at harvard and all other schools you apply too...maybe then you'll shoot yourself and stop judging people and being a red neck big mouthed racist</p>
<p>kasanova: if poverty and hardship are reasons why URMs in general score lower, why is it that the poorest whites and Asians score higher than the richest blacks?</p>
<p>By the way, no one <em>needs</em> to go to Harvard to get out of anything. There are tons of other colleges. It's also very hypocritical for you to be making those racist generalizations, while ending your post by calling him a "redneck" and a "racist."</p>
<p>hold on a second. For many years, alot of the HBC's boasted some of the smartest minority minds in America, and for the better part of the world. Just because one group of people score lower on a standarized test that is GEARED towards middle-upper class whites and asians, really doesn't reflect whether or not their smarter. This whole argument is really what started the idea of Affirmative Action. So what, are you going to argue now that Affirmative Action should be done away with because now everyone has an equal change? Honestly, I think you're quite ignorant to argue an issue that you may not fully understand. Throwing names doesn't do anything, and it certainly isn't intelligent. Why doesn't everyone address the issues at hand, and observe them honestly... like, "Why aren't MORE Ivy League Schools accepting minorities onto their campuses?" or, "Why are HBC not producing more of the nations top Minority students?" And honestly, I think Harvard is a waste of money for most people. Just because your degree may read, "HARVARD GRADUATE", doesn't necessarily mean you have HARVARD knowledge.</p>
<p>And by the way: Most "whites" aren't necessarily white anymore. It's a fast dying majority. So just because you're white, doesn't mean you're smarter than anyone. Most of my URM friends are actually smarter and more motivated than the white's at my school. Explain that one.</p>
<p>Listen, if the SAT is "GEARED towards middle-upper class whites and asians," why is it that the poorest Asians and whites score higher than the richest blacks?</p>
<p>And stop saying minorities--because you're clearly referring to just URMs. Also, the problem isn't that Ivy League schools (or any other elite undergrad schools) aren't accepting enough minorities--it's that not enough apply. In terms of the applicant pool and the admitted pool, URMs are already overrepresented and the Asians underrepresented (at Harvard, anyway).</p>
<p>well, if it's GEARED towards whites and asians, obviously they are going to do better, regardless of income level. And URM's/Minorities/WHATEVER you want to call us, ARE way underrepresented at the TOP universities, and even in some of the State U's. Ugh. I quit. Ignorance makes me sick. you should all really step out of your shoes and into someone else's....</p>
<p>I'll start by saying that, kasanova, calling him a redneck really isn't going to get anyone anywhere--because the fact of that matter is that, believe it or not, many people, rednecks and otherwise, really do agree with him. </p>
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<p>"URMs have, on average, lower SAT scores and GPA. Why is that, and why wouldn't those factors be indicative of an overall lower level of academic achievement and aptitude in URMs?"</p>
<p>Again, why are we using the SAT and even GPA as measures of brilliance? Who says that being "smart" means having a 1600 and a 4.0, and that being "dumb" means having a 1210 and a 2.3? </p>
<p>Why is it so difficult to understand that SAT scores and the works are as much a matter of social factors as they are an indication of even the slightest glimmer of intelligence? Seriously, the idea that smarter kids have better grades/higher scores is really stale, and ultimately moot. Many people can work hard and study hard for their SATs and for their classes. That doesn't mean they're smarter than everyone else, or even smart. </p>
<p>I'll be honest. It saddens me that it's hard to see why I don't appreciate being told that my people, as a whole, are not as intelligent as white people. Yeah I went "apenuts"--who wouldn't???</p>
<p>Everything is such an uphill battle. I worked hard to get into Harvard because I was told, very early on, that I wasn't smart enough to make it. And once people saw I worked hard, they predicted I'd get in--not because they thought I was talented, or intelligent, or interesting--but because they figured that since I was black, everything would be automatic. Many of you may not know how it feels to be acknowledged academically on the basis of race and not academics. Some of you may. But there are some of you who, obviously, do not. </p>
<p>Some white people are smarter than many black people. Some black people are smarter than many white people. This is not the point. Brilliance transcends race, and does not necessarily have anything to do with grades or SAT scores. Who's to say that the white guy that was doing integrals when he was 5 is smarter than the black guy who's a champion slam poet, and vice versa? Does that have anything to do with SAT scores or grades? </p>
<p>You're working with a stereotype and the saddest part is that you can't even see it. Why are people so surprised by black people who are articulate, or asian people who aren't good at math, or white people who maybe AREN't so articulate, or by hispanics who DON'T speak spanish fluently or carry around their green cards, or by people from the south who aren't "racist" and "stupid"? And how can you expect these people NOT to be offended when you act surprised?</p>
<p>White people aren't smarter than black people or any other minorities--excuse me--URMs. But I'm glad there are people like you because hearing you gives me more reason to fight and face that uphill battle every day.</p>
<p>How is it GEARED towards whites and Asians--care to tell me? While you're at it, why don't you tell me if the bias in the SAT is cultural or something more intrinsic. Asians have been showing steady progress in the verbal section of the SAT, slowly closing the gap between them and whites--Asians have not <em>always</em> been the highest scoring race, they have gradually improved to be that way. Is there any feasible reason why blacks have not improved their scores or caught up to the whites yet?</p>
<p>Anyway, all of the above was beside the point. Your point was that the SAT was geared towards "middle-upper class whites and asians." If it were so, why would middle-upper class URMs perform worse than the poorest Asians? Clearly economic status had nothing to do with why Asians and whites did better than URMs, yet you chose to bring it up anyway. Was there any point?</p>
<p>Yes, they are underrepresented. That's why they get a leg-up in admissions, and I don't really have a problem with that.</p>
<p>Why am I ignorant? What do you know that I don't? Instead of getting frustrated and insulting me, why don't you actually tell us what you mean? I don't think that I am being all that close-minded here. You, on the other hand, resort to calling me "ignorant" without posting much of anything with value, and then tell me I need to look at it from someone else's perpsective. I just might, if you actually tell me what I am supposed to be looking for.</p>
<p>And, by the way--</p>
<p>Do you think many black people don't apply to top schools because they don't want to, or because all of their life they were told that it wouldn't be worth it because they weren't "smart" enough--because they didn't have perfect grades or scores or any other indications of "brilliance"? </p>
<p>And do you think that so many asian students apply to Harvard because they were told they weren't "smart" enough, or because they come from a culture of both asian and, apparently, white people who tell them that they are?</p>
<p>saxfreq:</p>
<p>No one said that all whites are smarter than all blacks. Obviously there are blacks smarter than whites, and vice versa. What was said earlier (which I disagree with, by the way) is that on average, whites at Harvard may be smarter than their black counterparts. It's pointless to argue that using individual hypotheticals.</p>
<p>By the way, I'd like to hear some of those "social" factors. While I don't believe that SATs are indicative of intelligence, I don't really know what social factors would cause rich blacks to score worse than poor Asians/whites.</p>
<p>"
Why is it so difficult to understand that SAT scores and the works are as much a matter of social factors as they are an indication of even the slightest glimmer of intelligence? Seriously, the idea that smarter kids have better grades/higher scores is really stale, and ultimately moot. Many people can work hard and study hard for their SATs and for their classes. That doesn't mean they're smarter than everyone else, or even smart."</p>
<p>That's very true. But what you've said above about how people can study for SATs and grades isn't something that is race-specific. Then the question might become--why aren't blacks studying as much as Asians/whites? Clearly SATs and grades (in high school, anyway) are more dependant on effort than brilliance, so if blacks tend to have lower grades and SAT scores, does that mean they put in less effort as a race than do whites or Asians?</p>
<p>By the way, I'm not working with <em>any</em> stereotype. Where have I stated any? I've posted mostly statistical facts, and asked some questions based on them. It's not my fault if some people are way too sensitive to that (not you, saxfreq).</p>
<p>I think that there definitely can be some self-selection in the black applicant pool, but not so much. I think since the idea that being black helps so much is so prevalent, some blacks may just apply for the hell of it. I think those two factors cancel each other out essentially, but that's just my opinion.</p>
<p>I think many Asians apply to Harvard simply because many of them have good SAT scores and grades. In my opinion, Many Asians think that those two are the only major factors for admissions, which is a sad and obvious misconception.</p>
<p>i got 1500s in the SATs my cousin got 1600 and we live in a poor area in trinidad...thankfully we attend a great school however i know many"urms" who dont hav my oppurtunities...o yea and i am racist towards anyone who thinks a black person wit a 1300 whose been thru hell and has no mom or dad and lives with his dying grandmother and tries as hard as he can in school shudnt get into a good school cuz he cant afford an SAT tutoor and cuz he goes to a school that doesnt offer APs. lets blow up all retarded whining whiote folks starting with that seth dude</p>
<p>ps all our sat2 are above 720</p>
<p>"i got 1500s in the SATs my cousin got 1600 and we live in a poor area in trinidad...thankfully we attend a great school however i know many"urms" who dont hav my oppurtunities...o yea and i am racist towards anyone who thinks a black person wit a 1300 whose been thru hell and has no mom or dad and lives with his dying grandmother and tries as hard as he can in school shudnt get into a good school cuz he cant afford an SAT tutoor and cuz he goes to a school that doesnt offer APs. lets blow up all retarded whining whiote folks starting with that seth dude"</p>
<p>Good job on your great scores (SAT Is and IIs). However, it's meaningless (for this argument's sake) when compared with the statistical data comprised of thousands of students. No one said that URMs can't get great scores--just that on AVERAGE, they get lower scores.</p>
<p>By the way, does race really matter when you're talking about a "person wit a 1300 whose been thru hell and has no mom or dad and lives with his dying grandmother and tries as hard as he can in school"? Whites can be in that situation, as can Asians. Not all whites get SAT prep, nor do all Asians. If SAT prep had such a big impact on overall test scores, why don't the more advantaged blacks outperform the poorer whites or Asians?</p>