Do you have to be really brilliant to go to HARVARD?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>Correction:</p>

<p>"Yes, some afs, hispanics and all are as brilliant as whites, but most aren't." </p>

<p>That wasn't Harvard-specific; it means, at least from where I'm sitting, that generally, most URMs aren't as smart as whites. </p>

<p>But either way I'm glad you disagree. (And the stereotype comment wasn't directed towards you, HH05.)</p>

<p>"I don't really know what social factors would cause rich blacks to score worse than poor Asians/whites . . . Then the question might become--why aren't blacks studying as much as Asians/whites? Clearly SATs and grades (in high school, anyway) are more dependant on effort than brilliance, so if blacks tend to have lower grades and SAT scores, does that mean they put in less effort as a race than do whites or Asians?"</p>

<p>I think these are interesting questions. First, I'm curious where you've learned that poor white people score higher than rich white people--it's not that I don't believe you, I'd just like to be sure that it's true before I comment. I think that it'd be interesting to figure out why--but to also examine how well rich white people do in comparison to poor black people, how well rich white people do in comparison to poor white people, how well poor white people do in comparison to poor black people, etc. etc. etc. (with all the races included). </p>

<p>But I think the fact that we're even going down the "rich"/"poor" route is a sign that some of the social factors of which you ask are socioeconomic, and not racial. I can't speak for rich people; but I know that for many students (of all colors) who are not as wealthy, priorities are different. Working or taking care of families come into play; these factors are not necessarily considered more important than academics or SATs but they are not secondary, either. </p>

<p>And these, in themselves, are a sign that it doesn't take brilliance to get into Harvard. Many people (of modest backgrounds) get into Harvard, not only because they are smart, but because their economic situations and the way they face adversity are, in themselves, admirable. This is not race-specific at all.</p>

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<p>Rich people score higher because most rich people read while most poor people don't.</p>

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<p>I think you misunderstood what I said (or I messed up). What it should've said was that rich blacks score worse than poor whites/Asians. Here are the links:</p>

<p>For a good paper on the SAT/race issue as a whole (and where all the graphs are from):
<a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>MATH SAT vs INCOME
<a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testg0%7Bimage2%7D.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testg0%7Bimage2%7D.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>VERBAL SAT vs INCOME
<a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testg0%7Bimage1%7D.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testg0%7Bimage1%7D.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You can see a similar thing happen with parental education</p>

<p>MATH SAT vs PARENTAL EDUCATION:
<a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testg0%7Bimage0%7D.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testg0%7Bimage0%7D.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>VERBAL SAT vs PARENTAL EDUCATION:
<a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testg1%7Bimage0%7D.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testg1%7Bimage0%7D.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Seems like some of the claims I've been making aren't 100% true. I should've clarified for all my posts that the richest blacks score worse than the poorest Asians. These numbers/graphs were a bit fuzzy in my head when I posted earlier. In any case, you can still see how blacks with more money still tend to score lower than whites or Asians with less money. You see the same sort of thing with hispanics too, though not as much.</p>

<p>I agree that SAT scores and such at dependant on socioeconomic factors, but I can't help but think that there is something race-specific, especially after looking at the data above. It may be cultural, but it seems definitely to be something race-specific.</p>

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<p>Interesting. Do you, by chance, know the proportion of rich blacks to rich whites? Either way, I see what you're saying; but if SAT scores aren't good indications of intelligence, as I think we agree, then can these graphs really imply that there is a disparity between the instrinsic intelligence of different races?</p>

<p>Also, it almost seems that what you are implying ("It may be cultural, but it seems definitely to be something race-specific") is similar to the kind of comment that has Harvard in enough trouble, as it is. Be careful.</p>

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<p>wait, i dont understand. surely i am mistaken. are we actually arguing inherent racial superiority here? i must just be confused, but it seems to me like a few people were saying, in no uncertain terms, that black hispanic and native american students are not as 'brilliant' as their white and asian counterparts. are you kidding? you can't be very 'brilliant' yourself if you say something like this.</p>

<p>also, seth blue, i find it very amusing that although youve only been a user for about four weeks now, you are now an authority on college admissions and state your opinions as the given truth. HA. seems to me like i was just reading your post about your 'friend's' chances at harvard...</p>

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<p>"Interesting. Do you, by chance, know the proportion of rich blacks to rich whites? Either way, I see what you're saying; but if SAT scores aren't good indications of intelligence, as I think we agree, then can these graphs really imply that there is a disparity between the instrinsic intelligence of different races?"</p>

<p>I think that to an extent, it could be considered. While on an individual basis an SAT score may not be representative of the person's intelligence, I think it has more meaning from a more general perspective. Nothing conclusive, but I don't think it's something that can be dismissed that easily. That being said, it would be pretty stupid to think any random black person is any dumber than any random white person.</p>

<p>"Also, it almost seems that what you are implying ("It may be cultural, but it seems definitely to be something race-specific") is similar to the kind of comment that has Harvard in enough trouble, as it is. Be careful."</p>

<p>What did Harvard (or its adcoms, or whoever) say? I don't see why my comment would be even remotely offensive--it's pretty much true. So far the data has shown that race has a bigger effect on SAT scores than income or parental education, and given that I'd say the most basic reasons for the differences in scores may be racial (not that one race is dumber/smarter than the other). I think that it is a serious issue that should be looked into.</p>

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<p>"wait, i dont understand. surely i am mistaken. are we actually arguing inherent racial superiority here? i must just be confused, but it seems to me like a few people were saying, in no uncertain terms, that black hispanic and native american students are not as 'brilliant' as their white and asian counterparts. are you kidding? you can't be very 'brilliant' yourself if you say something like this."</p>

<p>Are you responding to me? Because that's not what I have been saying at ALL.</p>

<p>"also, seth blue, i find it very amusing that although youve only been a user for about four weeks now, you are now an authority on college admissions and state your opinions as the given truth. HA. seems to me like i was just reading your post about your 'friend's' chances at harvard..."</p>

<p>seth blue hasn't said anything for a while--why do you keep referring to him?</p>

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<p>keep? this is my first response. i just read the thread. </p>

<p>"'can these graphs really imply that there is a disparity between the instrinsic intelligence of different races?'"</p>

<p>I think that to an extent, it could be considered. "</p>

<p>uhh, sort of seems like thats what you're saying. I'm not trying to provoke you or anything, I'm just pointing out something that you said that I consider pretty outrageous.</p>

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<p>whoops, my bad. I thought you were someone else.</p>

<p>I wasn't trying to imply that there was an intrinsic intelligence gap among the different races. I just felt that this data was not something that should be dismissed that easily, and that the whole issue about an intrinsic intelligence gap should be something that should be considered and investigated. Basically, I'm not saying yes OR no--I'm just saying that no one knows for sure, and people should look more into it. It's such a taboo subject it seems, that people are afraid to dig too deep into it.</p>

<p>By the way, I should have said "it SHOULD be considered." My mistake.I didn't even realize which one I wrote until you drew my attention to it again.</p>

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<p>If anything, the SAT tests determination. I'm a five-year Hispanic immigrant and the first time I took the SAT, I received some horrible score---like combined 720. Four years later, I got an 800 on the verbal section.</p>

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<p>"What did Harvard (or its adcoms, or whoever) say? I don't see why my comment would be even remotely offensive--it's pretty much true."</p>

<p>I was referencing the "innate differences"/women-in-engineering debate. The idea that one group is superior to another in some "innate" way seems to be becoming thematic. </p>

<p>(On another note, I'm curious, HH05--are you a Harvard applicant/student/acceptee/none of the above?)</p>

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<p>"SAT tests determination if anything. I'm a five-year Hispanic immigrant and the first time I took the SAT, I received some horrible score---like 720. Four years later, I got an 800 on the verbal section."</p>

<p>Perhaps on an individual basis, but I don't think that theory has much value when you're talking about entire ethnic groups. Unless, of course, you think blacks are way less determined than Asians.</p>

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<p>"I was referencing the "innate differences"/women-in-engineering debate. The idea that one group is superior to another in some "innate" way seems to be becoming thematic."</p>

<p>Ah. I don't think Harvard itself is in trouble though. It's just Summers who's in some hot water.</p>

<p>Acceptee.</p>

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<p>"Perhaps on an individual basis, but I don't think that theory has much value when you're talking about entire ethnic groups."</p>

<p>Agreed.</p>

<p>(Me, too. This should make the Harvard experience interesting, to say the least.)</p>

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<p>I think that a lot of performance on SATs has to do with social conditioning</p>

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<p>Of course, SAT is all about reading comprehension. Blacks, as a whole, read far less than Hispanics (Mexico's secondary schools, the vast majority of which are private, are as good or better than U.S. public schools.) Of course, whites have an obvious advantage, they're born into the language and are more likely to read and hear "better" English than historically subjugated blacks. Asians are forced to achieve at home. I actually have an asian friend (4.71 GPA) whose dad threatened to send him back to Korea because he got an A-. Social conditioning at it's best (or worst, depending on personal beliefs.)</p>

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<p>MzLover, do you think affluent blacks will hear "worse" English than poor whites?</p>

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<p>Do I seem stupid to you? lol</p>

<p>Of course not. (note my use of "subjugated" ;))</p>

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<p>"Do I seem stupid to you? lol</p>

<p>Of course not. (note my use of "subjugated" "</p>

<p>I figured you didn't. The thing is, the idea of social conditioning (in the way you mentioned it) doesn't really address why or how richer blacks score worse than the poorest whites.</p>

<p>What can explain why poor whites perform better on the SAT than rich blacks?</p>

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<p>looks like i started quite a controversy. Whatever, i'm not a rascist and red-neck. I happen to have a lot of respect for blacks and hispanics who overcome social and economic hardships.
HH05, i don't think you're ignorant. I think you're making a sensible, general, and factual point, and the others are taking it too personally.</p>