Do you have to be really brilliant to go to HARVARD?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>well i'm not taking it personally because i technically can't, but i dont think that heavy handed, sweeping statements such as ones that have been made here are valid or intelligent. </p>

<p>also, HH you seem to be misinterpreting the meaning of 'social conditioning' it has nothing to do with economic well being, it has to do with roles that people feel as if they have to play in society and predetermined parts that every person is put into (amongst other things)
seth, i'm glad you respect blacks and hispanics. imagine that!</p>

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<p>"also, HH you seem to be misinterpreting the meaning of 'social conditioning' it has nothing to do with economic well being, it has to do with roles that people feel as if they have to play in society and predetermined parts that every person is put into (amongst other things)"</p>

<p>I was only responding to MzLover's post. I thought that social conditioning (different from economic prosperity) had to do with it as well, but it'd be nice to actually know what TYPES of social conditioning cause blacks to score the lowest on the SATs. It's always dismissed that way, without any in-depth explanation.</p>

<p>I have not made any heavy-handed or sweeping statements. All I have said are mostly references to statistics and interpretations of them.</p>

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<p>"HH05, i don't think you're ignorant. I think you're making a sensible, general, and factual point, and the others are taking it too personally."</p>

<p>What sensible, general and factual point do you think is being made, exactly?</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.dushkin.com/olc/genarticle.mhtml?article=27042%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dushkin.com/olc/genarticle.mhtml?article=27042&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This (long) article by a Stanford prof. may give us all some perspective. Read the whole thing!</p>

<p>Stereotype-threat: the new social conditioning?</p>

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<p>"What sensible, general and factual point do you think is being made, exactly?"</p>

<p>Exactly. I haven't really made any points yet. Just some facts and questions regarding them.</p>

<p>I haven't read the entire article yet (I will tomorrow, when I'm feeling less lazy), but I did read the part where he discusses the gap in test scores. As usual, there is no explanation given for why rich blacks would score woree than poor whites. Poor whites cannot afford SAT prep or private school tuition. Rich blacks (I would assume) do not go to ghetto inner-city schools. If I'm wrong in my generalizations about poor whites and rich blacks, please tell me, since they seem pretty reasonable to me.</p>

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<p>Good god. The political correctness factor of this thread has gotten totally out of hand... I'm a middle class Asian, so please don't accuse me of being some rich white kid in a 50 million dollar house. And no, I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, so don't even try to pour that crap on me.</p>

<p>Lets put this this way. </p>

<p>If someone were to make a statement that "blacks on average are better at sports than asians." Would you still be going ape****? No, probably not, because it is FACT. African Americans as a WHOLE are more advanced physically than Asians. </p>

<p>Now, if if someone were to say "Asians on average are more intellectually advanced than African Americans/URMS," half the people on this board would go insane.</p>

<p>So why is it that African Americans/other URMS get breaks in education while whites and asians don't get breaks in recruitment for athletic programs? Now that I think about it, I think we should have a minimum quota for Asians in the NFL. Yeah, maybe thats some major ********, just like affirmative action.</p>

<p>SATs and GPA are the MOST reliable way or measuring intelligence at the moment. Just because YOU have to work 5 hours a day to help support your family doesn't mean you should get a break. </p>

<p>Life isn't fair. Everyone has their hardships. I agree that the white kid living in a $150 million home probably has an easier time than the poor URM living in the slums, but thats life. Anyways, Asians have had to do it too, BEING ASIAN DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO WORK LESS AND THAT THINGS COME EASIER! Asians are competing with whites now in Ivy leagues because most of them worked their arses off, you would probably get sick if I told you how much work many chinese middle schoolers had to do back in china, 12 ****ing hours of school 6 days a week, 5 hours of homework minimum after that. I find the idea that being asian means you have to "work less" VERY offensive. </p>

<p>Just an FYI, the VAST majority of Asians came here poor as hell, and they've had to WORK their way up to where they are now. Its not like it was handed to them in a silver platter.</p>

<p>Speaking from personal experience, my parents came here as poor immigrants, they were barely scraping out enough for rent/tuition even with their scholarship, and had to work extremely long hours after school (college). However, both of my parents eventually graduated with PHDs.</p>

<p>You guys are doing the exact same thing you guys accuse HH of doing. Making general sweeping statements and assumptions. Assuming that all asians/whites are at a better position than URMs, I'm sure there are asians/whites out there who are at the poverty line too, is it okay for the schools to "just assume" that they had better conditions than, say... a rich URM? </p>

<p>About the SAT and GPA being geared towards upper class. No offense, but what the hell? It must be a conspiracy, the folks at college board and the education system are all trying to keep URMs out of good colleges. Give me a break. As I've said before, everything that the SAT tutors teach is in the books. In fact, many of my friends have gotten 1500+ with just a 20$ PR book and 50 hours of mad studying.</p>

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<p>I wonder how people will respond to that. Thanks for saying what needed to be said though.</p>

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<p>but I wouldnt say that african americans are naturally more talented at sports than asians, because thats racist! i dont believe its true. i believe that because of social conditioning, society says to asian kids "you're asian and you can't be good at basketball, so play the violin instead" and they say to black kids "all you can do is rap or play sports, so dont bother with anything else"
i have never made any sweeping statements, in fact, knowing that everyone is different, i have purposefully shied away from making any generalisations.
ps, i think that you, as an asian, are doing a major disservice to yourself and your people by reinforcing racial stereotypes (asians are bad at sports)</p>

<p>also, we were having a calm and respectful conversation (at least from my pov) until you came, so if you insist on staying, please bring your anger down a level.</p>

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<p>understand that no one here is sugesting any such theme of inherent ethnic inferiority about blacks/hispanics/other URMs
To put it in simple terms: URMs lack the fortitude of asians and whites. One can only blame this on centuries of racism against those ethnic groups.
Not saying there are no URMs who are willing to overcome obstacles, but they are rarities. And I happen to have a lot of admiration for those individuals.</p>

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<p>He is angry, but he does have some good points.</p>

<p>For instance, people like kasanova seemed to imply that Asians/whites are all rich people and get better SAT scores because of SAT prep, and other stupid nonsense. sentient did a good job in responding to that point.</p>

<p>filmxoxo17--why is it so outrageous to believe or claim that a certain race is smarter than another, or that a certain race is more athletic than another? I mean it can be simply in the difference in how we are built, right? Asians have black hair and lighter skin (compared to blacks)--no one has a problem with me saying that, right?</p>

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<p>seth blue: Why would centuries of racism matter in this day and age? With the new generations of URMs, what conceivable effect could the racism of hundreds of years ago have on them?</p>

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<p>yeah the comment about all asians & white ppl = rich was stupid i agree.</p>

<p>hh, its fine for you to disagree with me, but i stand by my opinion that there are no inherent abilities/ disabilities due to race. i think its really dangerous to get into that mindset, considering all the different catastrophes that have occured due to that (the holocaust and segregation come to mind).
i know a number of asian athletes who have had it up to here with stereotypes that are furthered not only by whites and blacks, but by other asians as well. get over it, everyone starts off equal.</p>

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<p>sentient89, you fail to note that there just isn't enough room at Harvard for all the applicants with astronomical GPAs and awesome SATs. So what's the solution? To admit <em>successful</em> people, which are not necessarily "intelligent" people, at least as you define it. </p>

<p>Success is measured by taking advantage of every advantage you've had in life. Most whites who get into Harvard did that. Most asians who get into Harvard did that. Most URMs who get into Harvard did that. (The exceptions are multi-billion dollar kids.)</p>

<p>It's a simple question really, have you done everything you could to get into Harvard? If you haven't, you will NOT be admitted unless you're filthy rich.</p>

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<p>"get over it, everyone starts off equal."</p>

<p>I'm not sure that's so true. Not that I'm claiming that there are inherent differences when it comes to athletic ability or intelligence, but where is the evidence that says otherwise?</p>

<p>My mind is not yet made up on this issue. I don't know if Asians are naturally smarter than blacks, or if blacks are just built more athletically than Asians. I also don't know that "everyone starts off equal." I just don't like making claims either way.</p>

<p>"i think its really dangerous to get into that mindset, considering all the different catastrophes that have occured due to that (the holocaust and segregation come to mind)."</p>

<p>I hope you're not implying that I'm getting into that mindset.</p>

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<p>Okay. I was a bit angry, and I apologize if anyone took any offense to that post, but I felt that it was very much needed. I was extremely offended by the amount of emphasis on "political correctness" and I don't think I fully expressed my whole point.</p>

<p>My point is that people of all races are equally capable of achieving excellence, may it be at Harvard or somewhere else. I'm sure all of you guys agree with that too. </p>

<p>So then, why is it that some of you guys agree with affirmative action? Affirmative action basically classifies all URMs as a race as being "inferior" if you will, by saying that they need that extra boost to get into college. Personally, I would find that EXTREMELY offensive. </p>

<p>Affirmative action works race-wise, not individually, agreeing with affirmative action is the equivalent of agreeing with wide, generalizing statements. You are basically admitting that URMs need that extra boost.</p>

<p>Keep in mind what I said above, not all whites and asians are rich either. Why is it that they don't get boosts? Many African Americans have been in the USA for a long time, while Asians have just arrived recently and are just learning the language. </p>

<p>MzLover, thats my point exactly. Many Asians take advantage of every single outlet they have. Get out of the stereotype that all Asians are naturally born richer/better off than URMs. Astronomical GPAs/SATs do not come naturally, as amazing as it sounds, even if you're Asian, you have to actually work for them.</p>

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<p>Statistically Africans are far better than sports than asians. You can see it in the Olympics. That is a fact. </p>

<p>However, individually it may vary. Individually Asians may do better at some sports, like the Chinese runner recently in the 04 Olympics. So the above fact would not apply. </p>

<p>I think you guys are getting the average mixed up with the individual. Those are very different. The 1600-scoring URM is not the norm. The Asian that runs a 2 minute 800 is not the norm.</p>

<p>Everyone has their strengths and they should be allowed to fully express them, may it be sports or academics. Asians should not be discriminated against academically just as African Americans shouldn't be discriminated against athletically. Thats why affirmative action is outdated and useless.</p>

<p>edit: Btw the way, filmxoxo17

[quote]

...maybe then you'll shoot yourself and stop judging people and being a red neck big mouthed racist (kasanova 2)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]

also, we were having a calm and respectful conversation (at least from my pov) until you came, so if you insist on staying, please bring your anger down a level.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>Asians always dominate ping-pong too ;).</p>

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<p>First of all--who said asians don't have to work hard? Second--no, I wouldn't get mad at you if you said that African Americans are better at sports than asians--but I would think you were awfully silly. Do me a favor; expand your definition of sports to mean MORE than just basketball and football, where blacks are highly represented, and see if you feel the same way. </p>

<p>But back to the topic. I think we are all ignoring the history of education in this country. Yes, poverty is everywhere. But consider how recently URMs (and even women!) were given the opportunity to participate in institutions of higher learning, compared to how long ago these institutions were formed. Of COURSE these schools have more white students; look at how many years' head-start.</p>

<p>As far as asian students at these schools, I personally attribute this culture differences. You practically said it yourself: " . . . you would probably get sick if I told you how much work many chinese middle schoolers had to do back in china, 12 ****ing hours of school 6 days a week, 5 hours of homework minimum after that." Many of these students work hard in America, as well. So do URMs.</p>

<p>The difference is that comments like "Yes, some afs, hispanics and all are as brilliant as whites, but most aren't" and "African Americans, Hispanics, Native Amercans and such have to be LESS brilliant that Asians and whites" aren't normally directed at asian-americans. If what the Atlantic Monthly article (see above) says is true--and I believe it is--then this has a lot to do with it. Remember, although it may seem harder to find nowadays (even thought it isn't), racism didn't just die out the moment the Civil Rights movement ended; and you're incredibly misguided if you think it did.</p>

<p>As far as political correctness--</p>

<p>Nothing is wrong with being politically incorrect if you can back it up. (And this comment is not aimed at HH05). But you, who was so offended by "the idea that being asian means you have to 'work less'," can hardly criticize anyone for being so "politically correct." After all, as you so eloquently put it, "That's life."</p>

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<p>And in response to HH05's (soon to be age-old) question, I think the article implies more about blacks in general--INCLUDING rich blacks--than you are giving it credit for.</p>

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<p>"And in response to HH05's (soon to be age-old) question, I think the article implies more about blacks in general--INCLUDING rich blacks--than you are giving it credit for."</p>

<p>Possibly. Can you point me to some specific parts of the article though? As I have said, it is a very long article and I'm not up to reading such a big piece of writing =(.</p>

<p>And I think I keep asking that question because no one has yet to provide me with a satisfactory answer. People tend to dismiss it by saying things like "oh, the SAT is racist, etc" but never really elaborate.</p>