Doctors - America's Top Paying Job

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>America's</a> 25 Best-Paying Jobs - Forbes.com</p>

<p>this is to all those who keep giving insisting on these nonsensical time-value arguments </p>

<p>Sure some jobs in the finance industry and ceo's will make tons more without as much training, but there are really few of those positions and only at the top firms. You also have to put in tons of hours on the job as an investment banker, or many years in a firm before you can become a CEO. And so if you want to only look at those people working in the top banks at wall street, you should then also compare them to the nations best doctors in private practice, who also can make near a million a year.</p>

<p>In general, doctors average salaries are higher than the average salary of a CEO.</p>

<p>My take is if you are somewhat interested in healthcare and you want to make a lot of money and willing to put yourself through some more schooling, being a doctor seems like a sound choice to me.</p>

<p>the bottom line is: doctors have the biggest salaries.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
nonsensical time-value

[/quote]
Nonsensical to you, perhaps. It is the proper way to consider compensation.</p>

<p>
[quote]
the bottom line is: doctors have the biggest salaries.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Okay. The salary is the bottom line, eh? Let's try pushing this to the extreme to see if you'll understand the **actual **bottom line.</p>

<p>Job A requires forty-seven years of schooling at $40,000 a pop. Once you get it, you can spend one year at it. You will make $500,000 a year doing this job.</p>

<p>Job B only pays $25,000 a year, but requires no schooling. You can spend forty-eight years doing this job.</p>

<p>Which job is the financially better choice?</p>

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<p>I shudder a little when people label being a Doctor a "job".</p>

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<p>And people wonder why med school admissions needs to be so rigorous and difficult. It's to save fools from their own erroneous thinking.</p>

5

<p>No doubt that doctors make a lot of money, and for most doctors the compensation also goes further than this - they save lives. However, other jobs can make the same/more money without putting forth hundreds of thousands of dollars and many years of time (note that these jobs are often less stable, and often have extremely varying salaries). </p>

<p>It boils down to what you want to do. I think the point that most people on this forum are trying to make is that someone who is talented enough to become a doctor could also become a successful businessman and maybe make more money (in a certainly easier way). This is not to say that doctors are living from hand to mouth - they do indeed make A LOT of money and are highly regarded in society - they just achieve this after 30+ years of their life and a lot of money/loans.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
My take is if you are somewhat interested in healthcare and you want to make a lot of money and willing to put yourself through some more schooling, being a doctor seems like a sound choice to me.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your post implies that you've investigated the whole process of becoming a doctor and the amount of money they make relative to other jobs, yet I just don't believe that you actually thought about any of it.</p>

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<p>Medicine is a good profession for the risk averse. To endure the slog, it helps to either have a passion for helping others and/or an innate curiosity and interest in
applied science. At least that's what I tell my sons.</p>

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<p>"Medicine is a good profession for the risk averse"</p>

<p>I think I agree with the idea that your gauranteed to make a good living, but I'm sitting here in my office, thinking of all the risks i've taken today. What did I miss? Who could die or take someone else life tonight? I think having to live with risk and uncertainty is part of what makes this so hard.</p>

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<p>jksbond007,</p>

<p>Doctors have big salaries, but this article doesn't talk much about expenses. If anything, it sounds to me like being an airline pilot might be the best way to go...</p>

<p>Huh.</p>

<p>What am I doing with my life? :p</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Sure some jobs in the finance industry and ceo's will make tons more without as much training, but there are really few of those positions and only at the top firms.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, then, following the same logic, there are really only a 'few' such positions in medicine, as not everybody who wants to go to medical school will get admitted. In fact, the majority won't. Hence, just like not everybody can become an investment banker or a CEO, not everybody can become a doctor. </p>

<p>
[quote]
You also have to put in tons of hours on the job as an investment banker,

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</p>

<p>And doctors don't? Didn't some states recently try to pass laws limiting resident physician hours to "only" 80 hours a week? </p>

<p>
[quote]
or many years in a firm before you can become a CEO.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And similarly, you need many years to get through med school and residency. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And so if you want to only look at those people working in the top banks at wall street, you should then also compare them to the nations best doctors in private practice, who also can make near a million a year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And the top bankers and (especially) top hedge fund managers or VC/PE general partners can exceed that by a couple orders of magnitude. In short, a top financier can make more money in one year than a doctor can make in his entire lifetime. </p>

<p>
[quote]
the bottom line is: doctors have the biggest salaries.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, if you want to look at it that way, then I could equally say that ** professional athletes** have the biggest salaries. For example, the average salary in the NBA is over $5 million. That's just the average. How many doctors can make even the average NBA salary? </p>

<p>Now, of course, one might easily say that not everybody can get to the NBA. In fact, most people won't. But similarly, like I said before, not everybody can become a doctor. Most won't get into medical school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I could equally say that professional athletes have the biggest salaries.

[/quote]

Hm. I'm going to start borrowing this one.</p>

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<p>"For example, the average salary in the NBA is over $5 million."</p>

<p>I choked when I read that, so I looked it up.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.stat.ucla.edu/%7Ecoen/F03/110A/nbasalary.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stat.ucla.edu/~coen/F03/110A/nbasalary.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The "mode" is actually $270k. Does that change anything?? Still way more then me ....</p>

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<p>Article is also dated 2001. If you take average to imply "mean," then the article gives a mean (I think) of $2M.</p>

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<p>2007-08 $5.356 million</p>

<p>NBA</a> Salary Cap FAQ</p>

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<p>i'm not really going to keep this argument going much after this post when Forbes just listed 25 of the highest paying jobs and nearly all were jobs were those you get with an M.D.</p>

<p>this time value stuff implies if youre making it early and saving it and by compounding interest you'll have more than the guy who makes more and saves it later. however, most american's arent saving, in fact the average american spends 0.2% more than he/she earns in a year. so i will agree with you if you want to think of the salary as something you entirely save and put in an investment with compounding interest (but i dont think anyones doing that)</p>

<p>but with all those timing arguments aside, its likely the salary of your average 40 year old doctor is higher than that of your 40 year old businessman.</p>

<p>thirdly, it is much easier to be a doctor than a bulge bracket investment banker. a doctor just needs to get into any medical school. however, to be this top salary earning businessman of which you all speak, you need to not only get into a top university because goldman sachs, jp morgan, etc only recruit from the top but then you need to be among the best candidates from the top university to get recruited. there is no guarantee of getting the job once you are in the business school, unlike med school once you're in you're almost certain to get that M.D.</p>

<p>and hours wise, once youre out of residency you can have some control over your own hours, especially with your own practice. in fact some other thread i saw here in the premed sectino showed a site with the hours and they were all much below 80. investment bankers however are required to put in hours morning to night 6 days a week and risk being fired if they dont.</p>

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<p>jksbond007,</p>

<p>There's more to time value than just savings. It's about OPPORTUNITY COST.</p>

<p>The average doctor won't start earning the big bucks until around 32-35, depending on the type of specialty. That's approximately 7 to 10 years of "lost" income. At least 4, if you don't count the piddly resident "income." You also have to factor in the actual COST of medical school. Most physicians will graduate with around $100-125K in debt (just the principal.) </p>

<p>
[quote]
a doctor just needs to get into any medical school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And you think this is... easy?? It's much easier to try and break into the public sector and just bide your time until GS13. Heck, that way you never work more than 40-50 hours a week, you get a pension, and you get great benefits.</p>

<p>Plus, you can start right after undergrad and not lose 4+ years of income.</p>

<p>Also, you forgot that most doctors will NEVER get into the really lucrative specialties. Do you honestly believe that most doctors are going to be surgeons at UCSF?</p>

<p>Try talking to residents and see if medicine is the way to go if you're in it for the money. See the look they give you. That should tell you something.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
the highest paying jobs

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Since you're going to repeat yourself, so am I:
**Job A requires forty-seven years of schooling at $40,000 a pop. Once you get it, you can spend one year at it. You will make $500,000 a year doing this job.</p>

<p>Job B only pays $25,000 a year, but requires no schooling. You can spend forty-eight years doing this job.</p>

<p>Which job is the financially better choice?**</p>

<hr>

<p>
[quote]
this time value stuff implies if youre making it early and saving it

[/quote]
As we've said -- repeatedly -- on the thread you're referencing, it implies no such thing. Banks pay interest because money is more valuable when combined with time, not vice versa! This is a basic economic concept, and not only are all of us here in agreement, even the New York Times is affirming this:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Mr. Kotlikoff used it recently to reach the startling conclusion that over a lifetime a plumber has a higher standard of living than a physician with a general practice because the doctor starts earning later, pays higher taxes and high malpractice insurance premiums.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/business/12money.html?pagewanted=2&sq=physician%20plumber&st=nyt&scp=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/business/12money.html?pagewanted=2&sq=physician%20plumber&st=nyt&scp=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<hr>

<p>Finally, if basic economics doesn't make sense to you, and if you're unwilling to work within the Socratic method to learn it, and if you don't believe any of us here including several economists, and if you don't believe the NYT and an economist at Boston University, then let's try this:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/307704-how-long-does-take-pay-off-loans.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/307704-how-long-does-take-pay-off-loans.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>''Job A requires forty-seven years of schooling at $40,000 a pop. Once you get it, you can spend one year at it. You will make $500,000 a year doing this job.</p>

<p>Job B only pays $25,000 a year, but requires no schooling. You can spend forty-eight years doing this job.</p>

<p>Which job is the financially better choice?''</p>

<p>So you're saying becoming a doctor requires 47 years of schooling? Mhmm..
And are you advocating flipping burgers?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So you're saying

[/quote]
Obviously it's a hypothetical pushed to the extreme. The follow-up question is: how many years of schooling does it take for the two jobs to be even?</p>

<p>The point -- which I would think would be obvious but apparently the OP needs some help here -- is that salary is not the proper way to measure compensation.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Forbes just listed 25 of the highest paying jobs and nearly all were jobs were those you get with an M.D.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I didn't see 'NBA player' on that list. Or Major League Baseball player on that list. Or NFL player. Or NHL. Or NASCAR driver. </p>

<p>If you want to make a REAL list of the highest paying "jobs", I would have to guess that all of the different kinds of professional athletics would occupy much of that list. </p>

<p>
[quote]
however, most american's arent saving, in fact the average american spends 0.2% more than he/she earns in a year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But at the same time, the average American is actually enjoying life at a young age, whereas a young doctor-to-be is forced to live in student-style poverty for many years. </p>

<p>As a case in point, I can think of 2 brothers that I know. One of them, right after graduation from college, immediately bought a nice new sportscar and got a swanky downtown apartment in a very hip district. The other brother decided to go to med school and hence, ended up living in a dinky little apartment in a downscale part of town and driving a car that was literally almost as old as he was. That car was a real clunker (heck, I was afraid to ride in it), but that's all he could afford. The "promise" is that his life of student poverty is eventually going to translate into a good life later, but he is painfully well aware that his brother is enjoying his youth and he isn't. Yeah, maybe his brother is being financially foolish in the long term, but at least he's having a good time doing it. You're only young once, and that young doctor knows painfully well that he is sacrificing his youth and he will never get it back. He hopes it's a worthwhile trade, but you never know. What he told me is that he knows he might die tomorrow and he will have denied gratification to himself and received nothing in return, whereas if his brother dies tomorrow, at least he enjoyed life while he was here. In other words, he is going through a lot of pain now for a future that may never come. </p>

<p>
[quote]
thirdly, it is much easier to be a doctor than a bulge bracket investment banker. a doctor just needs to get into any medical school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is it really easier? That I question.</p>

<p>Let's face it. You say that a doctor "just needs to get into any medical school" as if that was just a walk in the park. Yet the fact is, the majority of med-school applicants get rejected from every single med school they apply to. That's right - every single one. And that's just talking about those who actually APPLY to med school. Plenty of people who want to be doctors don't even apply because they know they can't get in. If you have terrible grades and test scores, come on, you know you're not going to get in, so why bother applying? </p>

<p>
[quote]
and hours wise, once youre out of residency you can have some control over your own hours, especially with your own practice. in fact some other thread i saw here in the premed sectino showed a site with the hours and they were all much below 80. investment bankers however are required to put in hours morning to night 6 days a week and risk being fired if they dont.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, your logic is flawed. Investment bankers work morning to night in the beginning of their career. Later on, their hours become far better. Furthermore, many Ibankers leave the industry anyway, simply using it as a stepping stone to even more lucrative, but also far less time-intensive jobs in private equity, venture capital, hedge funds etc. {Heck, the best people never bother working as Ibankers at all, jumping directly to private equity or hedge funds}</p>