Does a phenomenal applied teacher really trump everything?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hi everyone, This is my first post although I have been following the forum for about 8 months. I have found the advice posted here to be invaluable but I have a situation now that I have not seen discussed before. Last year my DS, on the advice of his private teacher, applied to many top conservatory/university music programs for his instrument. Unfortunately, all of these programs only accepted 1 to 2 freshmen for his instrument and he was not the one. He ended up at a safety, a school with a fantastic teacher but with a less than stellar music program. The problem is he was so focused on getting the right teacher that he overlooked other areas that he now realizes were important to him. After only three weeks at school he has noticed that most of the students are not very serious in the practice room (he is often the only one practicing), the only orchestra ensemble cannot attract enough students to make a full symphony orchestra (particularly low brass), and the location of the school combined with poor mass transit makes it very difficult to leave campus. On the positive side, the academics at the school really fit him well and the applied teacher is phenomenal. He is a very serious kid that sets high standards for himself. He works very hard because he knows that in order to realize his dream of playing in a symphony orchestra he must work harder than everybody else. He is concerned that being around others that don't share his commitment and playing in a low level ensemble won't help his development. On the other hand he really clicks with his teacher and knows that he can learn alot from him. He is unhappy with the situation but is torn and doesn't know what to do. He doesn't feel comfortable talking about this with his teacher,yet he knows that if he decides to transfer, he needs to be thinking about audition repertoire and application deadlines. As a parent, I am not looking forward to another year of school auditions let alone the travel expenses. Has anyone been through something like this? Should I encourage him to stick it out or let him try to transfer? Does a phenomenal teacher really trump everything? </p>

<p>Just for some background: DS attended a PA high school and was considered one of the top students for his instrument in the state. He won a competition that sent him to England where he lived with host families and gave several recitals. He assumed he would make a top music school so he applied to the safety not expecting that he would actually end up there. He is the type of kid that only thinks of music 24 hours a day and is just now beginning to realize that not everyone is that serious.</p>

<p>Sorry for the long post. Any advice you can provide is much appreciated.</p>

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<p>As you have seen, the teacher is generally the most important consideration, but far from the only one. Does this particular teacher happen to teach at any other schools? The best situation I could think of in this case would be that the teacher is a faculty member at one of the schools that rejected your son (or at least at another school where the other music students are more serious) and is impressed enough with your son’s work ethic and progress this year to want him to transfer into his or her other studio.</p>

<p>If he or she does not teach elsewhere, you and your son will have to balance out the pros and cons and come to a decision fairly soon in order to have time for the applications and auditions. Some things that you may wish to consider are:</p>

<p>Is this teacher uniquely qualified to teach your son, or might there be someone else just as good at another school? What are your son’s ambitions after he finishes his undergrad degree? Is the current school likely to prepare him for that, or would he be better served elsewhere? Given the situation this year, is he likely to improve enough to be accepted as a transfer student at a school that rejected him a year ago? Do you have inside knowledge on whether there will be openings for transfer students at any of those schools? If they only take one or two new freshmen per year, how likely is it that they will have any transfer openings at all? Is his audition material from last year still in good enough shape to brush up for this coming year? Will he need new material (if, for example, the school requirements have changed or if the reason that he was not accepted involved a deficiency in the audition repertoire)? What happens if he gets rejected by all of the schools again? Would the current teacher welcome him back, or is that teacher the type to hold a grudge?</p>

<p>If a transfer is a real possibility, it is essential that he discuss the matter with his current teacher. As part of the application process, many schools require a signed statement from the dean of the current school stating that they have been informed of the student’s intent to transfer out. Teachers at the other schools will probably want to hear about your son’s abilities and progress from his current teacher. It is only fair to keep the current teacher informed and to seek their advice on such an important decision.</p>

<p>Good luck to you both - this is a difficult situation indeed.</p>

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<p>orchparent- Welcome. Indeed, you have a dilema. </p>

<p>To boil it down, you write: "in order to realize his dream of playing in a symphony orchestra he must work harder than everybody else"and yet “the only orchestra ensemble cannot attract enough students to make a full symphony orchestra”</p>

<p>It seems in my opinion the cards are stacked against success. The orchestral seat as a career goal is elusive, even for many of the best players, from the most respected institutions, who spent four (and often more) years
playing with and learning from other high caliber musicians. </p>

<p>From what you describe, your son already sees major issues that are unlikely to disappear. A great teacher, no matter how much they can contribute to your son’s development, cannot make up for the overall experience of being able to participate fully in orchestras, ensembles, studio recitals with players of like mind and ability, as so much insight is gained by playing with and learning from high caliber musicians that surround you. </p>

<p>A great teacher should also recognize this. Does this same instructor serve as son’s academic advisor? In that capacity, it may be easier for son to be open about his disappointment and options available to maximize his chances for success. </p>

<p>One other thought… if your son is near the top of the food chain, and was only able to audition into a safety, think about the real word. If he’s playing an instrument that has few orchestral openings, and auditioning against players coming from environments that allowed/provided them a better overall developmental path, the dice are loaded.</p>

<p>Consider a full year of study with this teacher, but be honest with them. Concentrate this semester’s instruction around the audition rep, and work it till it’s perfect in the hopes of getting the “right” school.</p>

<p>I cross posted with BassDad. In reading his reply, I would classify his advice as “practical”, mine “philosophical”. He made excellent points, and suggestions and addressed a few potential negative outcomes if the current teacher is less than receptive to an open discussion.</p>

<p>In a perfect world, a “great” teacher would glean enough satisfaction in helping your son get to the next level, and understand the reasons. As the world is not perfect, this may or may not be possible. Proceed with caution, but I still think honesty and a frank discussion about the program’s weaknesses is paramount.</p>

<p>BassDad’s opening paragraph presents the best case scenario.</p>

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<p>As always, Bassdad and Violadad have sage advice. I read your post with interest, because I just sent an email this morning discussing the same thing with my D. The difference, though, is the level of your S and my D’s abilities. My D is NOT conservatory level.</p>

<p>With my D, she has an excellent teacher she feels she is learning a lot from, and she is getting many opportunities as a freshman because she is near the top of the heap in a so-so studio. I don’t know how she will feel a few years from now. But she is used to playing second fiddle (pun intended) to a few stars, and is enjoying the opportunity to be a big fish in a small pond for a change.</p>

<p>I also have a kid at a conservatory, who did not apply to any safeties for exactly the reason your S is unhappy – he didn’t want a mediocre orchestra. He was prepared to take a year off and try again, if necessary. I agree with the dads that talking with the teacher is a first step. If the teacher knows your S is unhappy with the level of the orchestra, he might be able to arrange something – such as playing (or subbing) with a local community orchestra or creating a higher level ensemble.</p>

<p>If he decides to transfer, he will need his current teacher’s “permission” as well as a recommendation. So it is important to have the line of communication wide open. It will help if your S is verbal about liking the teacher, and enlisting his help to improve things.</p>

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<p>Oh, I so feel for your son Ouchparent.</p>

<p>This is exactly why my son, a senior applying this fall/winter, like Binx’s, will not be applying to any safety schools. He made the decision that he would take a gap year and reapply if he is not successful with his (very small list) choices.</p>

<p>Now, I don’t know about college level, but when we have switched teachers up until this point (which has happened a number of times, not always voluntarily), we have been told that teachers really want to see students excel, and not to hold them back, and that they understand that switching happens for a variety of reasons. I would suspect that this teacher might understand your son’s predicament; at least I would hope so.</p>

<p>There isn’t any question that if things can’t be worked out in the college/community where your son is now, I would advocate transferring, but that is because I understand the 24/7 music kid, and how unhappy they are when the level of play is beneath them.</p>

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<p>My D is towards the middle of the pack at a conservatory. The competition pushes her to improve. I suspect she would have lost interest and not progressed in a more mediocre environment. In fact if she had not been accepted into a suitable conservatory, she was considering giving up music or playing at a very casual level.</p>

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<p>Another point that came to mind:</p>

<p>If possible, your son should find out why he was not accepted at the other schools last year. It may be a little late to do this, but is probably worth a try. Did he run into stiffer competition than usual, some other extenuating circumstance like a developmental admission or an admission from the teacher’s private studio, or was there some aspect of his playing or presentation that was found lacking? If the latter, it is critical that he fix that flaw before reauditioning for the same teachers, or they will feel he is wasting their time.</p>

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<p>It is usually my opinion that the auditons themselves should serve as a vetting and processing step in the setting of appropriate career goals. If a singer or instrumentalist is not accepted into a premiere program, it means something. Certainly some years it is easier than others, the line is shorter in various instruments, etc. There is a reality in the result, however, and it means that however many were accepted, those players or singers were further along, and the auditioning professional faculty members are more optimistic about the other performer’s possibilities. I would not agree with the idea of taking a gap year, just to try again. It is reasonable to start school, wherever admitted, concentrating on the core curriculum and studying with a very good teacher, then trying the auditions again, but to drop all the other areas of academic development and pursuit is possibly, if not probably, foolish. I would never have agreed to it for one of my own children, nor would I support the idea for one of my students. My professional opinion…</p>

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<p>Hopefully it won’t come down to this, and of course I appreciate anyone’s opinion, professional or otherwise, but I would support a well constructed gap year. If you think it is foolish, Lorelei, that is your opinion. I know other students who have taken a gap year with very good results. It is preferable to languishing in the wrong program, at least in my opinion. ;)</p>

<p>PS And I never said that a gap year would involve dropping “all academic development and pursuit.” A well constructed gap year would be inclusive of such.</p>

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<p>My S’s “gap year” (which did not happen) would have dropped all academics. That is why he specifically chose gap year over safety. If he wasn’t at a conservatory, where it is pretty much all music, all the time, then he wanted to produce as close to that at home as he could. He did not want to “waste” (his word) any time on academics. (He turned down Governors Honors for the same reason; they made students pick a minor in an unrelated field. He wasn’t willing.)</p>

<p>One caveat - He had world class (famous, even) teachers in Germany, where we lived his senior year (and 2 more years after that) and spending a “year at home” in this case would have involved living overseas, and studying with three different famous horn players. Side by side with a year at the state u, studying with a less able teacher, there was no contest.</p>

<p>I do hear what you’re saying, Lorelei. There are some kids who hear what they want to hear, and refuse to accept reality. Wishing real hard does not equal talent. Their fall comes hard.</p>

<p>Yet, sometimes their perseverance pays off. Orchestra rosters show a fair number of players who did not go the conservatory route. (And conservatories have their share of unemployed students.) There are some who attend their safety, then “move up” for grad school. And there are late bloomers.</p>

<p>But I also think that if a student has done everything else we preach on these pages, like attend high level summer programs, enter competitions, enlist the help of as many professionals as possible to give objective opinions … If all these things are happening, and the student is winning big competitions, getting the go ahead consistently from other teachers, etc, then I’d be willing to allow him/her to gamble on a second chance. Especially if he already is studying with a teacher who is better than the teacher at the safety.</p>

<p>Sometimes bad things happen at auditions - no/limited openings, illness, bad days. It happens. I don’t think dreams should be automatically dismissed at that point. My kid auditioned only at 4 places. We were well aware that he was putting his eggs in not too many baskets. He’s talented, and capable. So far, though, he’s also had a good bit of luck. We don’t take it for granted.</p>

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<p>My son has agreed that he would take Multivariable Calculus (which he didn’t want to do this year, while preparing for auditions and taking other academic classes) were he to end up on a gap year. He is strong in math, and it would make sense for him to do that. I could see some other musically related pursuits he would choose to do while preparing again for auditions. While he has his eggs in a similarly small basket, he is willing to take the risk, and we are willing to support that risk, since he has been very thoughtful about the whole process and has also had some good luck so far.</p>

<p>I agree that chasing a pipe dream would make a gap year fruitless. But I am talking about kids who have had their talent verified, and who might have experienced the bad day, bad audition, too few spots for too many talented kids, scenario that Binx describes. And considering that I can think of two kids off hand who used a gap year and reauditioned successfully, I guess I find it somewhat perplexing that someone would call that path foolish.</p>

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<p>“to drop all the other areas of academic development and pursuit is possibly, if not probably, foolish”…not a blanket statement, just a warning…if that offended or perplexed you, I am truly sorry. </p>

<p>Aspiring artist do better if there is not a frantic “all or nothing” attitude. When the performer has been advised by seasoned professionals and will continue to have access to excellent training, of course those are factors. Many musicians are not well educated members of society, they are not successful conversationalists about issue of the world, and this is sad. Enrichment of the mind while the body and the techique mature would be a hope and wish for any aspiring artist. There are so few who make a living as professional musicians, no matter what conservatory they attend. If they have continued their intellectual development, there will be more options. </p>

<p>It is worthwhile to consider taking time off after the undergraduate studies, especially if it will be difficult to prepare graduate school auditions. It gives a young performer time to expand their own sense of what they want, what is out there. The physical maturity is invaluable, especially for a singer. When I did my DMA, I already had four years of experience as an adjunct professor, and it made my doctoral work so much easier than that of those who had gone straight through their studies. I knew what I needed to know, and I had a much broader perspective about the whole field of music. </p>

<p>While we all want the best for our children and we dream their dreams with them, the guidance of professionals can not be ingnored. I give credence to the professionals hearing the auditions, who are in a position to evaluate and compare the incoming talent pool. Certainly there are other knowledgeable professionals, and when performers have been competition winners in high level contests, there are other judgements worth weighing.</p>

<p>Good luck to your son, Allmusic, he is fortunate to have your support. </p>

<p>Lorelei</p>

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<p>I wondered if the possibility of grad school shouldn’t be factored in, as binx mentioned. If the applied teacher is phenomenal and the academics are good (particularly if he could line up some alternate experience for orchestra and particularly some chamber music, which I don’t think you mentioned), the orchestral experience might well come at the graduate level. </p>

<p>Another thing I wondered about was how important the “great fit” academics were to your son. It’s hard to tell from your description, but it sounds like a degree that is not an all-out performance degree, but tilted at least a little toward the BA model? After the undergrad years, the chance to be exposed to ideas from other disciplines pretty much vanishes. Is that part of the equation important to him and would he take a step down in that area if he switched to a conservatory?</p>

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<p>I’m going to agree basically with -Allmusic- and binx and do believe that sometimes the stars just aren’t aligned for that year. Bad auditions happen as others have mentioned, the field could be exceptional, openings may be limited; it’s conceivable that some of OP son’s first choice auditions were taped submissions, which truly have to be a cut above. </p>

<p>The OP’s son as described appears to have dedication, talent, and potential for growth. Just because he didn’t make the first cut doesn’t mean there’s no chance for success.</p>

<p>What I venture to say might have happened is that enough homework wasn’t done in picking the safety. The prospect of a strong studio instructor was the initial draw and the balance and scope of the total program was glossed over. Maybe inexperience… we all know this is not a science. It’s a balancing act, and sometimes the gods throw you a curve. Perhaps finances dictated that only the top schools were visited. Or perhaps the program was actually less than advertised, or declining, or in a rebuilding stage.</p>

<p>If the student mentioned has been honestly assessed as having existing talent as well as the potential for further high level development, then make the most of this year by getting instrument specific instruction from the current strong that will assure a reasonable chance of success at higher level
programs. </p>

<p>And then, if the worst happens and nothing changes, I would then strongly urge a reconsideration of career paths.</p>

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<p>DS considered a gap year as well. In addition to studying with a first class teacher for the year, he would have also participated in several very good community orchestras, and a chamber music group. He (and we) felt that private study was important, but ensemble playing was as well. He would not have taken any “academic” courses, but probably would have continued piano and theory studies (in addition to his primary instrument). He would have needed all those things for another round of auditions, we felt.</p>

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<p>MarathonMan- The potential detriments of continuing in a less than stellar program even with the finest instrumental studio instructor could be a disaster.</p>

<p>As edad says, the best and most motivated musicians get better with the competition of performing with better musicians. So much is learned from peer interaction. In the best of scenarios from what I’ve personally witnessed is that it becomes almost a military or first responder mentality… it seems that individuals will go to extreme lengths to insure that their performance does not let the group down. </p>

<p>Four years of playing with unmotivated and casual musicians not intent on pursuing personal perfection or hoping to land a decent paying orchestral seat
is unlikely to be salvaged by two years at the best grad program in the country. </p>

<p>My $.02.</p>

<p>Clarification:
Just to point out, I’m assuming the student is pursuing an instrumental BM performance degree, and the academics are secondary to the music concerns.</p>

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<p>Wow! Thank you all for such considerate, thoughtful replies. I am not sure where to start, but I will try to expand on the questions/comments brought out.<br>
First, DS did solicit suggestions for improvement from some of the schools he was rejected from. The response in most cases was that he was a very good player both artistically and technically, but there was someone better and they had very limited openings. In one case the response was to work to achieve a “warmer tone” but even then they qualified that his audition was very good. I don’t know if these things were said to not discourage him or if they were sincere. In a couple of cases, he knew that he didn’t audition well, but understands that that happens and moved on. We found out after the fact that one of the schools he auditioned for had one opening and they selected a grad student. Kind of made me wonder why they would let an undergrad audition, but it is probably just in case they run across the one undergrad phenom. DS was waitlisted at one of his top choices, but never made it in. He met up with that teacher (who by the way is a muscian in a world class orchestra) at a local master class. That teacher encouraged him and explained that for their instrument it can take years beyond undergrad and even grad school to fully develop and become ready for the pro’s. In fact this teacher spent approx 8 years after school to “make it” and worked harder than he ever did during school. DS took this talk to heart and became even more serious and determined. My take on the situation was that the studio’s he auditioned for needed to balance between freshmen, transfers and grad students and had an average of 11 students total. Depending on graduations, they need more or less of each. I think last year was better for grad students and that this year it may be different. He certainly didn’t receive any feedback that indicated he shouldn’t be auditioning at that level. </p>

<p>My comment about the “great fit” for academics was really more from my perspective. DS historically was not a strong student but made a comeback senior year when reality hit and he picked it up. He doesn’t see the need for academics. (It takes away from playing time) Knowing his academic abilities fit with the school (not too hard) was a relief to me. </p>

<p>On the topic of a gap year, I do not think that would have been a good thing for my DS. Even performance majors must do a certain amount of academics and to have a year off, out of the routine of studying, test taking etc. would not have been good for DS. For stronger students it may be a good alternative, but I think it is a very individual thing. DS has a good friend that is taking this year off to work on auditions. We will have to wait and see if he is successful.</p>

<p>ViolaDad, I think you hit the nail on the head. There was not enough homework done in picking the safety. DS was entirely focused on the teacher. He had very specific requirements in the way they sounded/played and the personality fit. He also did not realize that the competition would be so great and he might actually end up at the safety. Being new at this and being non-musical, I stayed in the background thinking that DS new best about what he wanted. I think he got a reality check and this year he would understand his needs (and odds) a little better.</p>

<p>As for this year, DS is going to play with the local youth symphony. While it is mostly high school age, it at least is a full orch. As I said before, he really clicks with this teacher and thinks he can learn alot. I have encouraged him to take the month of Sept to evaluate if he really wants to consider a transfer as I think sometimes things get better once you are more familiar. There may be other groups to play with that he may not know about yet. He may find like-minded kids in the youth symphony. If he still wants to transfer, the logical choice would be to reapply to the school that waitlisted him and maybe research another safety. In the end, he knows that grad school is in his future and he knows several musicians in major symphonies that did not go to a conservatory as an undergrad. I do not worry about his resolve because this kid would not give up just because he didn’t make a conservatory. He is too single minded. He is also very fortunate to have several professional musicians in his life that help keep him encouraged. </p>

<p>Thank you all again for your comments/suggestions. I feel alot better just being able to talk about this with others that understand. I hope that our experience will be helpful to those just starting the process.</p>

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<p>orchparent- Your additional information seems to confirm that in applying and auditioning, your son caught a few bad breaks. Your comments and the audition feedback, and the support and encouragement of his professional musician mentors confirms that he has the perceived essential skills, mindset, and attitude to succeed as a performing musician.</p>

<p>The plan you’ve outlined seems viable. I would temper it by adding not to lose sight of audition requirements for next year, and allow enough time to prepare to his highest level if he does decide to transfer. Additionally, an open dialogue with his instructor about the shortcomings and lower than anticipated skill/motivation level of his peers might lay the foundation NOW to open the transfer discussion within a month’s time.</p>

<p>In the meantime, he should avail himself of any higher level ensemble/orchestral performance group that fits. The quality of the experience is an important part of his development as a musician and his eventual success.</p>

<p>Most of us here were in the same boat you were, no knowledge, no musical background, and in my case no clue. Some of us now have seniors, recent grads, and grad students. It’s a supportive group, with a broad base of knowledge and experience. Take advantage of it.</p>

<p>Please keep us posted.</p>

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<p>Music is a tough world for the aspiring high-school musician. All-state means you are 1 of 100 musicians from 1 of 50 states; i.e. 1 of 5000. Best in the state, makes you 1 of 50. Is that 50 on an instrument like violin, where perhaps 100 are taken at the top schools, or 50 on an instrument like tuba or bassoon, where you could count on 2 hands all the kids receiving offers from top conservatories.</p>

<p>Parents, I would suggest that your musicians need to do their best to determine approximately where they stand. Or conversely, have some concrete idea of where they need to be to get accepted.</p>

<p>It’s a bit late for you now, ouchparent, but I would suggest that this is a cautionary tale for other parents. Be very aware. When visiting schools before auditions, listen to the teachers- are they saying just tweak and you could be here, or are they asking what are your safety schools? Do the freshmen in the studio sound one year better, or several years ahead? Have they had lessons with several different professionals or college teachers? And I don’t mean the student of a great teacher, who could be a wonderful teacher - but is not one of the people sitting on a jury deciding who would be an asset to the school- I mean one of the actual professors. For those looking at the top conservatories …Have your kids auditioned for national level competitive summer programs, competitions or awards? How did they do? </p>

<p>As the parent of a conservatory student, and a HS jr interested in science AND music, my HS s is looking at schools with the following priorities in mind 1) music teacher, 2) great orchestra with ensemble and chamber opportunities and 3) great science/academics. Hopefully, early feedback while tell us to whether to broaden his acceptable criteria, or allow us to refine it. I’m sure there are others who would argue with our order, but after long hours of discussion, my s has determined his top 3 priorities for school selection.</p>

<p>Ouchparent, you did many of these things, but perhaps on hindsight you might be seeing what you might have done differently. I think that unless you have another musician coming up down the line, you don’t need to look back, just concentrate on forward. I know you have received some great advice on how to proceed, and I agree that something should be done to improve the chances for a good long-term outcome. Similarly, parents and their musicians need to think about how they can improve their long-term outcome (other than just practicing!) They’ve got to step out of their safety zone, away from their conductors & teachers, and present themselves to those who are going to make or break them. And then listen carefully!</p>

20

<p>Orchparent-
Our family has been in a similar situation and it’s not easy to know what to do! Son had auditioned at 6 schools three years ago, accepted at 3 but not the ‘big three’ he hoped for. </p>

<p>He opted for his first choice private teacher at a good (not stellar) music dept at a small public. His first year was wonderful. Son loved his classes, his friends, living away, the new girlfriend. Son advanced quickly with the private teacher’s direction and they established a bond that continues now, several years later. Teacher threw him performance opportunities, gigs, wrote recommendation letters, etc, etc. He’s a gem.</p>

<p>STILL by second year, son decided to transfer. He needed more serious students around him. He needed others with higher musical goals. He needed not to be the only one in the practice room on Sunday afternoon. So, the teacher alone for him was not enough.</p>

<p>He applied for transfer to two schools and was accepted to both. The too large price tag kept him from the NYC conservatory but he’s now a senior at Mason Gross at Rutgers U and has been happy. It was odd to listen to him explain that he really was pleased NOT to win the first chair in wind ensemble junior year because that meant someone more advanced won it.
I haven’t heard this year’s results yet! </p>

<p>It’s not been a straight path but he’s figuring it out. Best of luck to your family.</p>