Does my low low GPA ruin my chances at a Top 20?

Chance Me / Match Me!
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Demographics: Illinois, large public high school, US, Asian, low income, male, first generation (depends on where because my dad got a degree in Japan, nothing in the U.S.)
Majors: Business Administration or Computer Information
Unweighted GPA: 3.22 out of 4 (I have specific situation why)
Weighted GPA 5.0000 out of 6 (A = 6)
Rank: Not done
PSAT: 1410
ACT: 30
Classes (H means Honors) (I have taken the highest classes possible, except math, BC is offered) (I have taken Health, Civics, and AP Art History over summer and is put in my transcript):
Freshman year:

  • World History Honors
  • English 1 H
  • PE 1 Freshman S1/S2
  • Algebra 2 Trigonometry H
  • Chemistry Honors
  • Intro to Business
  • Spanish 2 Honors
  • Health

Sophomore year:

  • English 2 H
  • AP European History
  • Pre-Calculus H
  • AP Computer Science A
  • AP Physics 1
  • Early Bird P.E.
  • Spanish 3 Honors
  • Civics

Junior year:

  • AP U.S. History
  • AP Calculus AB
  • AP Biology
  • Business Law 1 H S1/S2
  • Spanish 5H: Spanish Studies
  • AP Language & Composition
  • PE
  • PE
  • Business Law 2 H S2
  • AP Art History

Senior year:

  • AP English Literature and Composition
  • AP United States Government and Politics
  • AP Statistics
  • AP Microeconomics
  • AP Macroeconomics
  • AP Physics C
  • AP Spanish Language and Culture
  • PE
    Awards:
  • My High School’s Honor Roll - 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022
  • West Suburban Conference Math Contest - 2nd Place - 2019
  • West Suburban Conference Math Contest - 1st Place - 2021
  • Young Scholars Award - 2019
  • BPA (Business Professionals of America)Regional Banking & Finance - 3rd Place - 2022
  • Science Olympiad Regionals - Remote Sensing - 2nd Place - 2022
  • BPA (Business Professionals of America) State Qualifier - 2022
  • ICTM (Illinois Council of Teachers of Mathematics) State Qualifier - 2022
    Extracurriculars:
  1. BPA - 3rd place regional state qualify, leadership as a mentor
  2. NHS - team leader
  3. Math Team 1st & 2nd place Conference State qualify
  4. Science Olympiad - 2nd place regional (maybe exec board result not out),
  5. Ambassadors - club that has interview to get in (maybe exec board process not started yet), help transfer students
  6. Track - JV
  7. SADD - anti drug club on exec board small club (~20)
  8. school character club - 37 people out of 800ish get chosen based on good “character” and you get a mentor that just gives advice and help on how to be a better person
    Certifications: Google Digital Garage - The Fundamentals of Digital Marketing, Alison - Introduction to Microsoft Word 2019/365 - Learner Achievement Verification,
    Alison - Building Bots Using the Microsoft Bot Framework - Revised - Learner Achievement Verification, eLearning College - Cyber Security (Short Course) - Confirmation of Course Completion
    Volunteer: So far 46 hours, will do more in the summer, ranges from tutoring internationally in math, Special Olympics, food distributor, etc.
    Essays: Not started yet, but will soon. LOR, 4 of them, all participate a lot in class, friendly, seek help a lot, improved from Semester 1 to 2 in terms of grade
    Budget: no budget
    Schools: All top 20 but Harvard
    I have been stressing that all my hardwork is going to waste because of my GPA. Realistically, what are my chances? Thanks for reading!
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Why does top 20 matter?

You are unlikely as is anyone.

There are a million rankings and they get down to the department level.

What does no budget mean ? You can afford anywhere ? Or you don’t want to factor in budget now ? Budget is the most important thing.

Figure out what you want in a school besides what a magazine says. Large or small ? Urban or rural ? Football, Greek life etc.

There’s a million great schools.

For business and MIS, look at U of Arizona and Arizona State for large.

But know, it’s unlikely with your stats you’ll get into what you deem a top 20 or even 50. But who cares ? You need to get into the right school for you.

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So, your premise is that if you attend any college or university outside of the “top 20,” all of your hard work will have gone to waste? (And presumably that means the particular list compiled by the otherwise-defunct US News & World Report, of National Universities? So, liberal arts colleges don’t count either, even if they’re in the top 20 on that list?)

It seems as if you’ve focused a lot of energy on extracurriculars, and accomplished a lot in that sphere. Academically, you’re a B+ student in a rigorous program. Your test scores are somewhere in the 93rd-97th percentile depending on the test. You have no strong hooks.

You’re low income, and you describe your budget as “no budget.” Is that supposed to mean that your budget is zero and you qualify for full-ride financial aid?

It seems to me that your focus on rank is misguided. You need a high-quality education with the best possible financial aid package. And yes, the high-ranked schools tend also to give generous aid, but the 19 schools you are targeting based solely on rank are not the only sources of generous financial aid. At most of these schools, GPA is the first filter, and your 3.22 unweighted could put acceptance into question even if you were a recruited athlete. As an unhooked ORM, you’re expecting your extracurricular record to do an awful lot of heavy lifting, when many other applicants will have similar EC’s and flawless transcripts and 99th-percentile test scores.

You’re interested in a computation-heavy business program. Run the NPC for Lehigh, which has strong programs of this sort, gives no-loan aid to low-income students, treats Asian students as URM. Consider applying to their Diversity Achievers fly-in program. Undergraduate Business Information Systems Major | Lehigh Business By the numbers, with a 4.1-ish weighted GPA (converting to a 5 point scale rather than 6) and a 30 ACT, your odds at Lehigh are probably on the low side of 50/50, but URM status and an ED application, combined with your strong EC record and strong essays and recommendations, could position you well.

Babson is another one to look at - again, a reach based on stats alone, but they consider EC’s and entrepreneurial mindset strongly, and they give a good boost for Early Decision and also guarantee full-need-met aid.

My point is, if you put all your eggs in the “Top 20” basket, you could very easily get shut out. The business school at UIUC isn’t a slam-dunk either - the middle-50% unweighted GPA range for Gies is 3.61-3.95, and the middle-50% ACT range is 30-33. You really should be considering playing the ED card at schools where that extra boost will make a meaningful difference, and where you can afford to attend if admitted.

Not to be harsh, but you need to put the “top 20” criterion aside and start looking for schools where your stats make you a strong applicant, and where you can get the financial aid you will need. And, you need an affordable safety - maybe the UIC business school fits that bill? Build your list from the bottom up, not from the top down.

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It seems that you have won a large number of academic awards, Which is pretty impressive, so congrats on those. However that really does not seem to match what is going on with your GPA.

Any AO is going to look at your resume and ask “If they are able to achieve top prizes in science, math, and business competitions, why are they unable to achieve higher grades?” The impression that they will have is that you have time management issues and that you put so much effort into your extracurricular activities that your grades suffered quit a bit. That is not something that AOs at the colleges that you are asking about will see as an advantage.

As for your specific situation - is it something that demonstrates that, had you not been on that situation, you would have done a lot better? More correctly, did you do a lot better when the situation was resolved? It is not enough that you have a reason behind your low GPA. You need to show that you are capable of doing much much better.

In all honesty, though, unless you are a star athlete or the child of a donor, being admitted to any of the top 20 is an extremely long shot. Even if you convince them that you GPA was the result of some unfortunate situation that was not your fault, you are still competing with thousands of kids with GPAs that are close to 4.0.

These colleges are rejecting 80% of all applicants with GPAs of over 3.95 and SATs of over 1550. The overall acceptance rate for an unhooked applicant is around 2%-4% at any given “T-20” colleges, and your GPA and ACT scores do not put you at the top of those applicants.

Finally, and most importantly - why do you think that a “T-20” college is a good place for you?
What do you know about these colleges except that they are the most popular colleges out there?

Do yourself a favor and start focusing on colleges which are better matches for you, and where your profile is much more similar to that of admitted students. At this point, you re stressing yourself out for no actual gain.

There are literally hundreds of great colleges out there, including some very good in-state choices. Use your high school’s Naviance to help find you a colleges which is in line with your profile.

Good luck!

PS. You are not first gen - your father has a degree.

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Forget the top 20. I would also advise you to forget the top 50 though you could try a couple reaches.

You have a 3.22 gpa and a 30 ACT. Start there. Look for schools that match that and would be safeties for those stats.

You say you have 4 LORs. Most top schools ask for two. Some will accept a third if it shows a different side of you. Once you start looking at lower ranked schools, many only want one and some don’t need any. They just go off stats. Bottom line - you don’t need all those LORs and don’t send more than the schools ask for just because you have them.

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Top 20 schools are out of reach, many of top 50 probably are too. Start with identifying an affordable safety school, what school is that?

Then spend time in identifying match schools which IMO will be schools with a 40% acceptance rate or so. Lehigh could work here. Babson is a reach. UIUC Gies is out of reach, seriously do not waste your first choice major there. If you want to apply to UIUC pick a major in ACES and your second major DGS, or just go for DGS as your first and only major.

Lastly you say you have no budget, but what does that mean? Are your parents unable to contribute anything toward your education? Until we know the budget we can’t help you with your list.

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I always recommend that students use the weakest part of their record when finding safeties and matches. If you don’t, you could find yourself with no acceptances. Our experiences with our daughter’s friends were that grades and scores were the primary factor in predicting admission. ECs didn’t close the gap for reach schools.

Top 20 or bust is a terrible mindset. There are so many great schools in the US that could be a great fit for you. Hard work is never wasted.

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Maybe your SAT will be better
like in the 1500 range.

Unweighted GPA: 3.22 out of 4 (I have specific situation why)
Weighted GPA 5.0000 out of 6 (A = 6)

Students applying to T20 schools typically have higher GPAs
although not everyone does. BUT these are a reach for you as with anyone else.

How much will your parents contribute annually towards your college costs?

Agree
you are not first generation college
your dad has a degree.

My free advice. Build your list from the bottom up. IOW, find a couple of colleges where you have a high chance of acceptance, are affordable, and where you would be happy attending. You might want to start with your instate public universities for this. Once you have these two schools chosen, then look for the others to apply to.

If any college you are interested in has rolling admissions, or early action
apply as early as possible. It’s nice to have an early acceptance. Even a rejection can be helpful in crafting the rest of your application list.

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I’m in Texas. I can tell you that you would not get into get into our highly rated, two flagship state universities-Texas A&M and University of Texas, based on your gpa and test score (maybe Wait List, possibly offered a pathway school, but definitely not Business or CompSci). With your 1410 PSAT, did that get you NM Commended?
46 volunteer/community service hours? What do the clubs you belong to do, if they aren’t volunteering? Unless you can come up with an excessive amount of hours this summer, I would not list the number of hours, I would just list the activities where you’ve volunteered.
You are not 1st Gen, if your father has a college degree.
What exactly is ‘no budget’?
There is WAY more to life then Ivy League and ‘top 20’ schools. You need to be realistic. You have much to offer, find schools that actually want you, where you’ll thrive. Ditch the ‘top 20’
waste of application $ and effort.

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Of the schools you have characterized as top 20 (U.S. News, as you should know, does not provide a general top-20 ranking), how many of them offer undergraduate degrees in business administration? I’d think not many.

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You are not first Gen. Your dad has a degree. A college educated parent with a degree from anywhere means you’re not the first in your family to attend college.

Whatever your reason is for your GPA, unless there is some very compelling story of hardship, illness, family circumstances, etc
 your grades are your biggest and most obvious weakness. It’s going to be hard to explain the low grades in light of all you managed to achieve with your extracurriculars. I suspect any AO will see that your prioritized your ECs at the expense of grades. Remember that colleges care most that you can succeed academically in their school. That’s why they care about grades.

Your competition will have many of the same achievements that you have, yet might have overcome awful situations and still have high grades.

I agree with others that top 20 colleges are almost certainly not possible. Your hard work doesn’t go to waste if you get into college. And there is nothing wrong with caring more about ECs than about your school work. We all make choices. Your choices appear to be towards the things you do outside of school hours and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I suggest you start a thread in the College Search and Selection forum. List your stats, your financial needs, potential majors, preferred locations, and the type of college you seek. You’re going to get into college, but it’s not likely to be Stanford.

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Absent some really good exceptional circumstances that make a compelling story, your GPA will limit you in regard to T10 schools. I dare say T10 are totally out of reach.
If you show steady improvement in your GPA (strong finish to your junior year, strong first half of your senior year), if you get a SAT around 1500
 I dare say you’d have a chance at some 10-20 schools. Still would be very very much a reach, but not impossible.
For example, Emory is ranked 21st in US News universities. A 1500 SAT would put you above their most recently reported SAT mean. You have fantastic rigor, which actually means more than GPA.
Still say a school like Emory would be very very much a reach, but not impossible.

I do believe you would be competitive for T50 schools, schools like Lehigh being a good example.

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Yes, your low GPA has ruined your chances at getting into a highly selective college. However, this is not the end of your career! You will get into lots of schools where you can study what you want to, and achieve your career and life goals. It’s going to be okay, in fact, probably much more than okay. You will be fine, especially if you wind up in Computer Information. There are several things that you can do.

First, if your semester is not over yet, get off of CC and put all your time and effort into studying now to get the best possible grades you can for this semester. Colleges will take into consideration an upward trend, together with extenuating circumstances.

Second, the easiest thing that one can do so late in the game, is to bring up that standardized test score (assuming that you’re not applying to UCs which are test-blind). I’m surprised that your ACT was that low, given that you’ve taken AP Lang and have math awards. It’s really quite easy to self-prep for the ACT. You just need to practice using the many retired ACT exams that are legally in the public domain (get a cheap, slightly out of date Official Guide to the ACT book and look on Reddit), and correct/self-study anything you get wrong. In particular, it’s very easy to bring up science, since that is only about data interpretation - all it requires is to do some practice sections, so that you become familiar with the charts and tables that they use to present data. For math, if your score wasn’t already very high, use the practice tests to identify what you need to review. For English, the practice sections can help you to identify and fix minor mechanics issues (punctuation, tough grammar points, etc), and for the reading section, practice tests can help you to get better at choosing the most obvious, most correct answer. And of course, always read the question first, so that you know what information you’re looking for in the passage.

In addition, if you find that your main problem is that you are running out of time on the test, could it be that you have an undiagnosed learning issue, such as ADHD? That could explain your impressive EC achievement, since people with ADHD often can hyperfocus on things that they really enjoy doing, while they have a very tough time forcing themselves to do the more mundane things that we all just have to do in life. If you think that this might be the issue, take an online ADHD screening test, and if it indicates that this might be true, get in with your pediatrician right away for a consultation. It’s late in the game for accommodations, but it is still possible, and if you hurry, you might be able to get extended time on a late summer ACT. You would have to get your pediatrician to write a letter to the school requesting 504 accommodations for ADHD, including extended time on tests, get the school to implement it for the remainder of the school year, ALWAYS USE IT so that the school can say that you do use the accommodation, and ask your guidance counselor to apply for extended time on the ACT for you. This would need to happen before the school year is over, since most districts don’t have the staff in place to make these submissions over the summer. Usually, people have to have a psychological testing done to get accommodations, but this alternative route is possible, and can be much quicker. This could allow you to have accommodations in place in time for a late summer ACT.

Third, realize that even with a 36 on the ACT, T20’s are out of the question for anyone with your GPA unless they have extraordinary extenuating circumstances that are resolved, or would be resolved upon entering college. Right now, your focus should be on finishing up this semester with the highest possible grades. If you think that you need accommodations for the ACT, move ahead on that, too, because you’re almost out of time for that. After finals, I’d begin prepping heavily for the ACT using old exams, and plan to re-take it at the end of the summer. During the summer, it’s time to identify schools that your family can afford, that you can get into, and that offer your intended major. Let go of chasing admission to a prestigious name T20 school. There are too many students with very high GPAs and stellar SAT/ACT scores, along with excellent ECs, who are applying - many of them are not getting in - for them to take a chance on you. T20 schools are not going to take you, when they are rejecting such highly qualified applicants, unless your specific situation was limited, evokes extraordinary empathy, is resolved, and you have since then shown consistent extremely high academic achievement. But you can get the exact same education at less selective schools, at far less expensive in-state public schools, and still get the exact same fantastic career. Honestly, in Computer Information for business applications (which I assume is what you’re considering), after success in the first job, all that subsequent employers care about is whether you have the capability to do the job, not where your degree is from.

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I agree with the advice you’ve been given so far.

Run the Net Price Calculator at some of these schools and see what price they expect your family to contribute. Is your family willing and able to pay that amount without taking loans for that amount while being on-track for a financially secure retirement? If the answer is yes, then schools that meet full need can remain inconsideration. Otherwise, you’re looking for low price and merit aid. Basically, find out the budget.

These are some schools that meet 100% of financial need to students to whom they’re giving financial aid (they’re not need-blind, though, so it may impact your chances of admission). You stand a chance of admission at these (some have higher chances, some have lower chances). I suspect that Marietta would be the most likely admit for you of these:

  • College of the Holy Cross (MA)
  • Franklin & Marshall (PA )
  • Union (NY)
  • Marietta (OH)
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Fwiw,

Many colleges and universities are beginning to consider students with parents who attended international universities as first-gen.

UCR defines first-generation as “a student, faculty, or staff member with neither parent or guardian having graduated with a 4-year degree or higher, in the United States.”
Overview | First Generation

(Verified Admissions Officer)The first college I worked for actually would have considered you first gen-- our guideline was anybody who did not have a parent who graduated from a US college.

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Interesting, and thanks for the article. Can I play devil’s advocate and suggest that a college will be much more inclined to consider a student first gen, even if a parent has been to college, if it suits their institutional needs?

I’d like to hear more about the rationale behind this thinking, and it might make for a new thread. I seriously doubt UCR, for example, is going to consider a kid with a parent who graduated from Oxbridge as being first gen. Maybe this student’s parent graduated from the University of Tokyo. That’s a world top uni. Is the student still first gen in the yes of UCR? Rhetorical question, of course.

I also notice the linked article carefully states that some colleges are “beginning” to consider this. I’m wondering which others.

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hi everyone, just to clarify, I do have 3 safeties that I am almost certain guaranteed in, I have 5 targets as well, I have checked that I am financially capable to go to those 8 schools. I was scoring around 33-34 and 1540-1550 on practice ACT and SATs, respectively, and that was around the first semester of freshman year, my scores were done with 0 prep because I was busy at that time, I plan on studying more and getting to around 34-35 and 1550 this summer. Would that improve my odds? My GPA freshman year and junior year was 3.5+ and it was a large dip sophomore that destroyed it. Thanks for reading. I also just noted that I placed state level for math.

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Yes sounds like a good idea (I guess the argument is that you don’t understand the US system?). Arizona is even more specific:
A first-generation college student is defined as a student:

  • who comes from a home where neither parent/legal guardian has completed a four-year bachelor’s degree;
  • whose parent(s)/legal guardian(s) completed a bachelor’s degree or equivalent in a country outside of the United States;

https://thrive.arizona.edu/first-cats-experience

It doesn’t say whether students whose parents got a PhD outside the US still count (but literally speaking I guess they do since they did complete a bachelor’s degree first, in theory I guess that could still apply if you then came to the US for your PhD).

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The stronger you application, the better your chances are. But these schools have 20% acceptance rates or WAY lower.

It’s very good that you already have those other options chosen.

Just do the best you can
and apply and see. It’s very hard to predict what might be very attractive to one or more of these top 20 schools. They are building a freshman class. No way to know what the other applicants will be submitting. Do the best you can
and see how things work out.

I’m glad to hear that you built your list from the bottom up
and can afford these colleges.

Good luck to you.

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Again, interesting. Learn something new every day! I think I will start a thread on this.

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