<p>Oldfort, not saying this is at all true in your family, but just responding to the part of your comment where you talk about how close families are or aren’t. Personally, I think that ‘fake’ closeness based on guilt, fear of defying parents, and outside expectations is no better than being estranged - in fact, I think it’s much worse. If one college-aged kid spends Christmas with his family, because he knows he would receive some sort of consewquences if he didn’t, but what he really wants is to spend it with his girlfriend or close friend and their family, that doesn’t make for a good situation, because in the end it’s just pretending and doesn’t mean anything.</p>
<p>At its worst, tiger parenting creates people who never get the joy (and yes, even the disappointment) of mayking their own choices, always concerned about what their extended family would say or think. That makes me very, very sad.</p>
<p>The book was Tiger Mom on steroids. If it wasn’t then people wouldn’t bother to read it. I think what’s a shame is that most Americans are assuming all Asian parents are like that.</p>
<p>I don’t assume that all Asian parents are like Amy Chua. From your earlier posts, oldfort, it is clear that you are not.</p>
<p>QMP has had a lot of Asian friends. Only one had parents who even came remotely close to being Tigers, and it wasn’t very close.</p>
<p>I am pleased to agree again with Pizzagirl! Being in Athens and skipping the Parthenon to get in 4 hours of piano practice (or whatever) apiece seems like sheer lunacy to me.</p>
<p>That is true, Oldfort. And part of the book (the part no one mentions because no one really read it, they just want to bash it) is about how she came to realize she should have moderated her parenting, and she did, because of her younger daughter.</p>
<p>However, many Asian Americans do know at least a few parents like this. There is a little truth in many stereotypes.</p>
<p>I’m a slacker Asian parent, myself. I’m serious. I should be a little more Tiger.</p>
<p>I do agree with acollegestudent that not all Asian parents are like this. My son’s roommate this past year at his small, lesser-known (even in the US) LAC was from China and his parents have been incredibly supportive of his intellectual exploration and growth. He has really thrived as he has acclimated to life in the US and “experimented” with different subjects in college.</p>
<p>Well, family relationships are at some level all based on obligation. Family relationships are not like friendships; you can’t really choose your family, even if you like them and are close to them. We see our far-flung relatives on a rough rotation, not because we necessarily want to spend our limited vacation time with them instead of going golfing in the DR, but because we understand that maintaining relationships takes some effort and self-sacrifice. Is this “fake”? I suppose it is to some extent. I still don’t think it’s sad or the equivalent of being estranged.</p>
<p>Tiger parenting is a relative term, like “affordable.” Someone’s conscientious parent is someone else’s control freak. Kids do need to trained, pushed and directed to a certain extent in order for them to realize their potential. When they are treated in such a way that their autonomy is denied and their capacity for independent reflection and decision-making is stunted, the pressure is harmful. When parental expectations are narrow (i.e. only 8 universities in the entire US are acceptable, or only two careers, medicine or engineering, are possible), then the pressure is harmful.</p>
<p>How could all Asians be tiger parents? After it is an extremely large population with many different subgroups. Do Hmongs approach education in the same way as ABCs or South Koreans? Are there vast differences in economic and educational achievement within the same subgroups? </p>
<p>Take a look at the video linked above for a hint. How is Mike different from the girls in that video? How are the parents different in terms of true support? </p>
<p>Obviously, it is ridiculously silly to pretend Asians form a homogeneous group. However, doesn’t the selective group who can recite the admissions rate and at least seven Ivies exhibits some constants?</p>
<p>In my observations of Asian friends/neighbors/colleagues, it is interesting to notice that, in general, the more successful (academically and/or professionally) the parents, the more “relaxed” their parenting styles.</p>
<p>I like French mothers as seen on Mad Men. I was just in France and did note how well behaved kids were–and how well dressed moms were. Still see the moms puffing away while pushing a stroller. But they look good. Also so many very fancy shops selling just clothing for kids–very nice clothing.</p>
<p>It would have been nice to know exactly how the parenting style (tiger or supportive- which can be misleading names as tiger parents can be supportive) was determined.</p>
<p>
I have a very hard time believing this. Tiger kids are normally have a much greater sense of family obligation. They also do very well in school.</p>
<p>
Fair point. </p>
<p>The thing is, though tiger parenting seems very extreme, and even cruel, to many Americans, most tiger kids grow up to appreciate their upbringing and become tiger parents themselves. I don’t have tiger parents, nor do I ever plan to be a tiger parent, but you need to recognize that people have different cultures and values.</p>
<p>Most kids who grow up being hit end up hitting their kids as well. And that’s also a parenting style that is common in other cultures. Neither the fact that the kids grow up to use the same parenting styles nor the fact that certain parenting styles are accepted in other cultures give legitimacy to those parenting styles.</p>
<p>Personally, I am not one of those people who believe that just because something is ‘cultural’ automaitcally means we should accept it as OK (by the way, I myself am from a different culture, and I recognize there are plenty of things wrong with that culture).</p>
<p>QM re#18- No, she isn’t playing a concerto yet. She is in book three and working on other pieces and etudes outside book three. She just said that several months ago as she only started violin 16 months ago when she turned 11. I must say that I am sad to see my son go because last night he and my daughter spent an hour playing the piano and violin together. He plays the harmonies and has a way of making her work a little harder. She would probably reach that concerto goal sooner if he were at home another year!</p>
A bit of a side point, but what about things wrong with this culture? Whenever people talk about cultures and criticize/praise them, American culture never seems to be brought up, like people assume that this culture is the “default” that everyone is born with, only to be taken away and changed when the child is raised.</p>
<p>I agree that we shouldn’t accept something just because it’s cultural. But at the same time, I don’t think that someone outside a culture is qualified to judge another culture in a way that categorizes practices as absolutely negative (or absolutely positive for that matter). My point is that the fact that a cultural practice is continued and widely practiced, even by the people it supposedly inflicts major harm on, shows that everything isn’t as simple as it seems. The people believe that the practice is beneficial- who am I to doubt that it is from my own insular point of view? </p>
<p>There’s plenty wrong with, let’s say, inner-city gang culture that emphasizes being a thug and de-emphasizes learning, or Jersey-shore-style culture that emphasizes materialism and shallowness, or the rural-bubba-give-the-5-year-old-a-rifle culture that, well, is too sad to even comment on. No one said all aspects of American culture are perfect. I don’t subscribe to the view that every culture is equal.</p>
Of course, every culture isn’t equal. Regardless, you cannot fully understand another culture from the outside.
But the things you mention that are bad about America worry me, because they don’t really focus on American culture, but rather focus on the cultures of certain small groups in America. I feel like you didn’t mention any aspects in mainstream American culture at all.</p>
<p>What do you mean by American culture? I’ve lived in several different parts of America and several different socioeconomic groups. They all have very different parenting styles. Which style are you referring to?</p>
Being in Athens and skipping the Parthenon to get in 4 hours of piano practice (or whatever) apiece seems like sheer lunacy to me.</p>