<p>lol. cheating is so commonplace in bangladesh that its not even funny. i never did it cuz im too much of a straight shooter to do that but everyone;s like amazed that i dont. its very easy to do it here cuz the invigilators are extermely retarded, but i never had a prblem with timing in the SAT 1 so whatever</p>
<p>Wow, that's pretty unfair then.</p>
<p>However, I could see why these parents would want their children tested. I do have full confidence in your father that these students do not in fact have a disability, but you can't blame the parents for believing so when they don't have the background knowledge he does.</p>
<p>My son has Asperger's Syndrome and is very ADD. I've thought about asking for extra time but I'll see how he did today on his December SAT. He has 5 AP classes (B average) and got a 196 on the PSAT -we've had a hard time getting any accomdations because he's bright.</p>
<p>I think what he could benefit from more than extra time is being in a room by himself with plain walls.</p>
<p>I know he could benefit A LOT from extra time on the writing. His handwriting is slow and tortured and is absolutely terriible. I'd hate to be the one to grade his essay. He is slow because it takes him a very long time to write things by hand. But, it's the writing, which doesn't seem to count a lot for many schools.</p>
<p>dvm258 states there is no problem: "The articles posted by the OP give the impression that many more students are getting 'unlimited' time to take the test. It even includes comments from students complaining 'Well I wish I was rich so I got unlimited time!' Trust me, the unlimited time designation is only given to the most extreme cases."</p>
<p>Unfortunately, that assertion fails to deliver any empirical data. It is merely that one person's statement.</p>
<p>Readers are allowed to determine if they choose to believe dvm258 or:</p>
<p>The Boston Globe -- More</a> time for SATs a concern - The Boston Globe</p>
<p>The New York Times -- Abuse</a> Feared as SAT Test Changes Disability Policy - New York Times</p>
<p>The Chicago Sun Times -- SAT</a> system easier to beat? Chicago Sun-Times - Find Articles</p>
<p>among others.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <blockquote> <p>A student with a legitimate, diagnosed learning difference has as much of a real problem as a student diagnosed as blind.>>></p> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I agree with this statement.</p>
<p>I also feel that I ought to know if the surgeon who is going to operate on my appendix happens to be blind.</p>
<p>Similarly, I feel that I ought to know if the doctor, dentist, lawyer, or for that matter my hedge fund manager (should I be so lucky to have one) is learning disabled (or learning "different"). </p>
<p>However, there are people even in professional schools who get extra time for their tests because they are learning disabled ("different"). </p>
<p>My question is, what will happen in real life situations- will the learning-disabled ("different") doctor take twice as much time to make a diagnosis on his/her patient? Will the patient die while the doctor is taking twice as long to assimilate the information from the intensive care monitor?</p>
<p>I am sorry if I come off as insensitive. I am not. I really and truly want the best educational opportunities for the disabled and I think they should be treated fairly. But like it or not, certain doors need to stay closed. </p>
<p>A blind person should not be allowed to play varsity basketball. A dyslexic individual should not be put in situations that require rapid and copious reading- eg AP English literature. Should we provide other venues for the blind person to enjoy recreational physical activity? Absolutely. Should we offer non-reading based opportunities for bright and dyslexic students to show their intellectual genius? Absolutely.</p>
<p>The stats in the articles tell us that the percentage of students receiving SAT accomodations of any type was 2% nationwide (Sun Times and NYT articles, 2002). The Mass rate was 5% in 2006 (Globe article). It's hard to know which of these are fraudulent claims of learning disability. One would hope there aren't so many parents, school officials, doctors and educational psychotherapists of bad character willing to collude to abuse the system. </p>
<p>Vicariousparent,
The American with Disabilities Act covers qualified individuals with disabilities. It would not cover a blind surgeon because s/he would not be able to perform the essential function of the job. Here's some info from the ADA website that explains the law. </p>
<p>Q. Who is a "qualified individual with a disability?"</p>
<p>A. A qualified individual with a disability is a person who meets legitimate skill, experience, education, or other requirements of an employment position that s/he holds or seeks, and who can perform the essential functions of the position with or without reasonable accommodation. Requiring the ability to perform "essential" functions assures that an individual with a disability will not be considered unqualified simply because of inability to perform marginal or incidental job functions. If the individual is qualified to perform essential job functions except for limitations caused by a disability, the employer must consider whether the individual could perform these functions with a reasonable accommodation. If a written job description has been prepared in advance of advertising or interviewing applicants for a job, this will be considered as evidence, although not conclusive evidence, of the essential functions of the job.</p>
<p>MD_Mom: OK, so we can't have a blind surgeon under the ADA. What about a learning disabled surgeon?</p>
<p>Agreed Missypie.</p>
<p>Because I am a bright student as well, we brought this issue up with my guidance counselor my freshman year. She made it EXTREMELY clear to us that we needed to get the necessary paperwork ready by the summer before junior year so I could take the PSAT with accommodations as well.</p>
<p>In addition, they emphasized the importance of getting it early and submitting older documentation from elementary school to prove we weren't trying to lie to them. Otherwise, with my good grades it would appear like we were "accommodations shoppers."</p>
<p>It's just difficult to get the accommodations for some disabilities, especially Aspergers, because the students are so intelligent they already get average scores without accommodations; a complete turn-off for the CB. In fact, that's their policy. If you already got an around average score on any of their tests, they refuse you accommodations. How stupid is that?</p>
<p>The standard is "ability to perform essential functions" so I imagine it would depend.</p>
<p>I don't think extra time on the SAT would help much. Unless you're a non-native English speaker.</p>
<p>So....Amb3r isn't back yet. That's sad, because I just went on the Thompson-Gale database my library provides, typed in "test accommodations," and this was the only result. Take a look:</p>
<p>The SAT.(correspondence)(Letter to the Editor).Stephen G. Sireci.</p>
<p>I was one of the two psychometricians on the panel that advised the College Board on the issue of whether the SAT scores of disabled students who take the test with accommodations should be "flagged" (see Miriam Kurtzig Freedman, "Disabling the SAT," Feature, Fall 2003). In my opinion, the decision to end the practice of flagging was the right one.</p>
<p>Standard testing conditions are problematic for many people with disabilities. This is why the College Board grants testing accommodations, such as extended time to finish the test. However, many people with disabilities do not want others to know about their disability. The practice of flagging SAT scores essentially informs college-admissions officers that the applicant has a disability. The opportunity for bias against the student is obvious.</p>
<p>There are two arguments in favor of flagging. The first is that providing an accommodation may give students with disabilities an unfair advantage. The second is that scores from accommodated test administrations are less valid than scores from standard administrations.</p>
<p>As Freedman argues, the current version of the Standards for Educational</p>
<p>and Psychological Testing can be interpreted to support the practice of flagging when information on the comparability of scores across standard and nonstandard test administrations is lacking. However, these standards also state: "If a modification is provided for which there is no reasonable basis for believing that the modification would affect score comparability, there is no need for a flag." Furthermore, the Standards are silent on the issue of where to draw the line between "comparability" and "noncomparability"</p>
<p>The College Board has sponsored more research on the effects of testing accommodations than any other organization in the world. The findings for the SAT show that students with disabilities perform much better when given accommodations such as extended time. Meanwhile, students without disabilities score only a little better when given an accommodation. The only evidence in support of "noncomparability" was for male students with learning disabilities who had extended time. Their first-year college GPAs were lower than the SAT predicted. However, this finding did not hold for females with learning disabilities, and it was reduced when males' high-school grades were factored in. When evaluating the size of this "overprediction" for learning-disabled males, the majority panel noted that it was smaller than the overprediction for other groups of students, such as African-American males. The practice of flagging could not be supported by the relatively small effect noted just for learning-disabled males.</p>
<p>No wonder it's taking amb3r forever. She can't find anything, and I just did this in literally three minutes from a reliable source: someone who advised the college board!</p>
<p>Oh how I dislike arguing this point over and over, but then I think, why shouldn't I try to enlighten those who just cannot get beyond their feelings of "unfairness". Firstly why would someone even make such an inane statement as "I ought to know if the surgeon...happens to be blind". That argument is rather extreme. Let's make realistic arguments.</p>
<p>Would your arguments apply to Albert Einstein? Galileo? Abraham Lincoln? John F. Kennedy? Walt Disney? Andrew Carnegie? Ansel Adams? They, and many more, who have contributed much more to this world than you or I ever will, had ADD/ADHD. I guess I am glad they never had teachers who would have shut doors on them because they learned differently.</p>
<p>You can bet that it would be highly unlikely that any person would choose a profession at which they could not perform up to par, just as a blind person would generally not choose to become a surgeon, just as you probably did not choose a profession at which you would fail. Just because a child learns differently, does not mean they do not learn. Why, if a child chooses AP lit because they have a love of literature, would you not hold that door open for him/her? I don't get your rationale at all. My ADHD/Dyslexic/Dysgraphic son reads Isaac Asimov's books on physics for fun, and "gets" it. Should I tell him he cannot take an AP Physics course because he learns differently?</p>
<p>It is because people have jumped to conclusions based on poor information that SAT's are no longer flagged. Children were being denied admissions because the committees saw notations that they had received accomodations. These kids were at a disadvantage, and yet they have so much to contribute. By the way, Kinko's founder is ADD, and have you ever read books such as "Driven to Distraction", written by two men, both with ADD and both successful medical professionals!</p>
<p>Before you want to take away from these kids, think about how much they might end up giving to the world. It is these kids who will change the world because they think outside of the box. They are the rule breakers in the sense that they find new ways of attacking a problem instead of spewing forth, letter by letter, what has already been discovered.</p>
<p>Narcissists are repelled by people who are "normal", apparently. LD kids are not normal, because a learning disability is a deviation from the norm. And this argument is going nowhere, because your calling me a narcissist is completely unfounded. I know of so many people brighter than I can ever be. By the way, I don't look down on kids with learning disabilities, but I will look down on them if they seek accomodations because I feel that is unfair. And on the converse, I actually admire those with LD who understand the purpose of standardized tests, and take them like everybody else does. One of my very good friends belongs in that category, in fact. </p>
<p>Let's take another case of somebody looking down on an action that is unfair. Cheating is unfair. If you look down on cheaters, I will call you a narcissist by the same flawed logic. If you look down on those who game the college admissions system by getting rich uncle harry to send in a big fat check, I'll call you a narcissist. Yes, I think getting accomodations is gaming the system too. It unbalances a system that is supposed to standardize, creating a stratified system of standardization completely contradictory to the original intent. Those who think speed is irrelevant on a test of ability are wrong, because speed is one component of ability. If you can do something, but it takes you one year to do it while others can do it in a day, colleges should know that difference. If it takes you twice as long to do something, colleges should know. If you can perform better than another person, but you received 1.5 as much time as that other person, colleges need to know, because time is not IRRELEVANT, and those who made these policies for accomodations and those who support them appear to think so. One cannot understand an applicant OR even interpret his scores accurately without knowing hte conditions under which he was administered.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My ADHD/Dyslexic/Dysgraphic son reads Isaac Asimov's books on physics for fun, and "gets" it. Should I tell him he cannot take an AP Physics course because he learns differently?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post, and I will later, but you are totally not getting the point. The AP curriculum is designed for those who are ahead of the normal curriculum. If your son is high achieving in physics, he should take ap physics. The SAT is designed to be a standard measure of ability, to measure all students on the same ruler of intelligence and performance. It has a completely different aim from the AP courses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is because people have jumped to conclusions based on poor information that SAT's are no longer flagged. Children were being denied admissions because the committees saw notations that they had received accomodations. These kids were at a disadvantage, and yet they have so much to contribute. By the way, Kinko's founder is ADD, and have you ever read books such as "Driven to Distraction", written by two men, both with ADD and both successful medical professionals!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Enough with the anecdotal evidence already! I have no doubt you can name 100 LD individuals famous beyond belief. The average LD kid is not like that. The system is not geared towards anomalies, and neither should it be, lest those who are normal take advantage of policies designed for LD individuals with great intelligence completely unrelated to whether or not they have a learning disability. </p>
<p>You are suggesting that because LD kids were looked down upon in the past, now they should be put on a pedestal and judged more leniently than others, as if that is a better alternative. Both are unnecessary, illogical extremes. Overcompensation for past evils, if you will.</p>
<p>
[quote]
These kids were at a disadvantage, and yet they have so much to contribute.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Every kid has a lot to contribute, especially applicants to the elite universities. Most get rejected. Stop making exceptions for LD kids. LD kids are born with disadvantages, so does that mean we should disregard the disadvantages? Why not forgive stupidity; that is a disadvantage too. (Before you cry UNFAIR!, i am not equating stupidity and LD except that they are both disadvantages) Why not forgive any flaw we are born with, because it is not in our ability to control?</p>
<p>dvm258, while some of the parents of students my father tests are actually legitimately concerned for their child's well-being (regardless of whether the student actually has a learning disability), the majority of them simply want to either</p>
<p>a) Give their kid a metaphorical "leg-up" over the competition for college.</p>
<p>or </p>
<p>b) Are too lazy and/or incompetent to teach their kid proper study habits, discipline, and time management skills, and instead hope that the lackings which result from this negligence will be compensated by a diagnosis of learning disability.</p>
<p>This is not to say that my father does not test kids who actually have ADD/ADHD/Special Ed needs/etc. I am simply speaking about the MAJORITY of students that he tests.</p>
<p>Yeah, I understand that mstrlndcwys. I have also seen a lot of parents who aim for a diagnosis and also happen to be bad parents. I have seen some who work all the time, smoke inside the house and blame all their grades on their child's ADD. Then, in turn, many kids simply always blame their problems on their disability, which is far from always the case.</p>
<p>Abm3r doesn't have a response to what I posted? People like her are the reason SAT and ACT scores aren't flagged anymore.</p>
<p>"By the way, I don't look down on kids with learning disabilities, but I will look down on them if they seek accomodations because I feel that is unfair."</p>
<p>The clock is ticking amb3r. Do you need extra time?</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <blockquote> <p>Would your arguments apply to Albert Einstein? Galileo? Abraham Lincoln? John F. Kennedy? Walt Disney? Andrew Carnegie? Ansel Adams? They, and many more, who have contributed much more to this world than you or I ever will, had ADD/ADHD. I guess I am glad they never had teachers who would have shut doors on them because they learned differently.>>></p> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>You just made my point. I will take your word that these people had ADD/ADHD. I am quite sure that NOT ONE of them had been given extra time on any of their schoolwork. Their success argues that people with ADD/ADHD do NOT need extra time on exams in order to succeed spectacularly in all walks of life. </p>
<p>I don't think Einstein would have discovered relativity sooner if he had been given extra time in his high school history exam.</p>
<p>High school is not an end to itself. College is not an end to itself. The purpose of both of those is to give a person skill sets that they can use in a career that will span over 40 years. I want my son to have a fullfilling career....I do not want him to be underemployed, as many people with Asperger's Syndrome are...if accomodations can help a student achieve at his full potential, then they serve their purpose.</p>