<p>Here's an excerpt from an article in the LA Times about training musicians and the need for a double degree from a different perspective: </p>
<p>Article in the Los Angeles Times:</p>
<p>"We are not producing too many musicians," says Leon Botstein, a noted conductor and the president of Bard College. "We are producing too many musicians the wrong way, too many in a very old-fashioned, very out-of-date system of professional training. Conservatories are still training people to win the Queen Elisabeth Competition 50 years ago. And to that, nobody's listening."</p>
<p>Botstein thinks that every musician should be trained to improvise, "to write his or her own material the way pop musicians do and classical musicians used to do." He also feels they should rethink concerts as "a form of theater that is not reproducible on a recording" and learn to connect more immediately to audiences.</p>
<p>Last fall, to supplement these goals, Bard started a mandatory double-degree program requiring all its conservatory students to also earn a bachelor of arts with a major in a field outside music.</p>
<p>"We're not doing this because we think there will be no jobs and this will be a safety net," says Robert Martin, Bard's Conservatory of Music director and vice president for academic affairs. "We think it's what musicians should have, what young musicians deserve and need. Our view is that musicians need a broader education."</p>
<p>More and more you hear or read that current music major programs are obsolete and make little sense in todays world and are in serious need of an overhaul.</p>
<p>As long as students are desperate for the spots available things will change very little.</p>
<p>He has a point but I think a double degree for a BA in music and one in performance is sort of redundant don't you think? There are people already who double major in music in comp. and performance, industry and science, etc...</p>
<p>The double degrees are for one degree in music, BM, and a BA in another field like mathematics or languages or political science. Some do performance/composition and for instance a teaching degree. Although the path to the BM is strenuous and focused adding in the other degree and another year to undergraduate studies lets the musician broaden his/her outlook in the world of Liberal Arts. I think it is a good thing.</p>
<p>I agree a broad education and perhaps a double degree is a good idea. There are, however, some significant limitations to this and other double degree programs. The double degree at Bard is a 5 year program. Even at 5 years, the time available for music and music performance is limited and a full time 4 year conservatory student is likely to have much more music experience and hence proficiency. Many full time conservatory students participate in ensembles and other groups without credits. That is difficult or impossible with the demands of a double degree program. Competition for jobs based on music performance might leave the double degree student at a disadvantage.</p>
<p>The double degree student at Bard has limited choices for the second degree. Mathematics and sciences are weak at Bard and there are no graduates in these areas. Education is not offered. Aside from visual/performing arts, choices are basically limited to social sciences, literature/languages, and "multidisciplinary" studies. There is no reason a musician cannot be socially aware and well spoken, but I am not sure this approach conveys a strong advantage and it does little to compensate for declining performance opportunities in classical music.</p>
<p>As a classically-trained musician, I have to put my two cents in. Too many conservatories are still turning out too many narrowly trained wannabe concertizers, when the actual jobs (or fun but non-paying opportunities) are in a host of other areas. It wasn't until I left school that I experienced many of the things I so enjoy now--playing for musicals, directing an amateur choir, accompanying anyone in any style of music. Finely tuned professional playing has its place, but other skills should be nurtured, including being able to direct, write program notes, and publicize a show. For pianists, experience on an electronic piano is a must--sometimes you need the instruction manual to turn it on, let alone getting everything out of it it is capable of!</p>
<p>Not to mention, of course, being able to teach. Oh, and play from a "fake" book. So many musicians can only play from the notes that are written, not the ones that aren't! You haven't experienced the real world until you've been asked to play from a bad photocopy of a handwritten song (real chickenscratching)--and could you take it up a third? :-D</p>
<p>Question is, does an English major (my chosen major!) graduate with any more prospects to do anything at all than a music major? </p>
<p>I think the passion and drive and dedication required to study music at a high level translates into great potential for success in other areas later in life, even if that later in life doesn't incude concertizing at the symphony level.</p>
<p>Botstein thinks that every musician should be trained to improvise, "to write his or her own material the way pop musicians do and classical musicians used to do." He also feels they should rethink concerts as "a form of theater that is not reproducible on a recording" and learn to connect more immediately to audiences.</p>
<p>I definitely agree. Too many classical concerts aim to be "perfect"--like a recording--and the only difference is you get to stare at people in black concert dress for two hours. (OK, sometimes the conductor provides charisma.) That's why I prefer opera; there's some theater to go along with the music.</p>
<p>I'd rather hear a pianist's own cadenza than Mozart's, no matter how perfectly reproduced. There's more drama, more living on the edge.</p>
<p>Our high school has an electronic ensemble--electric violins, acoustic instruments w/pickups, and electric bass. They have a great time with everything from classic rock to Copland's Hoedown--and the audiences love it.</p>
<p>Allmusic--you are right, but the point is they should not have to abandon music totally for lack of preparation. I think English majors realize going in they will ultimately do something else--business, law, editing, whatever--and not spend their days happily discussing Jane Austen, whereas most music students are focused on practicing one instrument 6 hours a day for the next UG concert. They need to be forced to contemplate and prepare for a wider range of activities within the music world, if they are to stay in the field at all.</p>
<p>Improvising is the hallmark of jazz, and one of the things that makes it a terrific genre. My son is classically trained, but adores playing jazz too. We know a lot of classically trained musicians who play jazz at a very high level.</p>
<p>Speaking from a vocal point of view, they seem to have top voice teachers and they started admitting to the graduate program first, of which, last I heard, they only accepted 2 sopranos. They are definitely going slow and careful with choices - it may end up being the top music school around in the near future!</p>
<p>edad: "The double degree student at Bard has limited choices for the second degree. Mathematics and sciences are weak at Bard and there are no graduates in these areas. Education is not offered. Aside from visual/performing arts, choices are basically limited to social sciences, literature/languages, and "multidisciplinary" studies."</p>
<p>No graduates in these areas? Question, where did you find your statistics? The math and science programs are small, but have incredible faculty and a lot of resources. The school is constructing a new science building, is setting up an exchange program with Rockefeller University, and has Global Health and Science, Technology, and Society tracks to be combined with biology or the other sciences. I'm personally not a science major, but I participated in another Bard science program--the Immediate Science Research Opportunity Program (ISROP)--and one of my coworkers was a double Music and Biology major in the conservatory. ISROP is a full-year research assistantship offered to first years at Bard. This year, we studyied zebrafish in our focus on neurobiology, whose genes for encoding NMDA proteins are similar to the human genes that are vital to the physiological process of learning. We were ultimately working to discover the specific role of different splice variants as they relate to learning and memory. Secondly, we were collaborating with colleagues at The Rockefeller University to test the hypothesis that M. tuberculosis uses its ICDH enzyme to protect itself from the human immune system. If the hypothesis proves correct, it is possible to develop enhanced medications for the treatment of tuberculosis. And again, I'm not even a science major, but I have friends who are majoring in both math and science and are very happy with the personal attention they receive from faculty.</p>
<p>Bard is very eager to accomodate students and their interests. The conservatory program is stellar, and Bard is working on setting up an exchange program with the Israel Conservatory of Music. Bard's president is the conductor of both the American Symphony Orchestra and the Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra, and both come to Bard to perform and work with conservatory students.</p>
<p>What it really comes down to is the environment you prefer. If you want close contact with faculty and breadth of curriculum, go to Bard. If you want a straight shot with a limited time commitment to an orchestra seat, go somewhere else.</p>
<p>It has been a couple of years since my D toured Bard. The new science building was in the planning stages and I would hope construction has begun. I considered the facilities of the older building to be very meager. We did hear about the association with Rockefeller U and got a detailed explanation of the research with Zebra fish. My D was interested in physics and chemistry. Labs and facilities were all but non-existant. For that year there had been no degrees awarded in the any of the sciences and that is also true for last year. These statistics are reported to the federal government and are available at <a href="http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/%5B/url%5D">http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/</a>.</p>
<p>Two years ago, the conservatory program had not started and music opportunities were not at a high level. At that time, the last big bash had occurred in the old gym. The student newspapers detailed the public sexual experimentation and number of drug overdoses. The administration had not decided to take action and the old gym was included on the applicant tour. One look was enough for my D to decide to apply elsewhere. A couple of years may have made a lot of difference at Bard. The conservatory has started, the old gym was closed and the new science facilities are closer to reality. Personal attention (and scholarships) can be expected for anyone interested in the sciences.</p>
<p>The application process for the Bard Conservatory was incredibly disorganized last year. They lost many of the prescreening tapes and required second copies-- but didn't request them until AFTER the published reply date to the prescreening applications, which they had missed without warning or apology. The level is very high, and admission is extraordinarily competitive.</p>
<p>That competitiveness, by the way, is the irony at Bard. The traditional problem of the double-degree program is that it's really hard to finish both degrees. Bard pretends to improve on old double-degree models, which consistently have low retention rates, by making it not only socially acceptable but necessary to complete both degrees. But in reality, double degree programs have always been hardest for the students who most need the conservatory component, those who come in not having devoted their entire lives to technical development. Those students need the most time to practice. Yo Yo Ma, Emmanuel Ax, and many others didn't need Bachelors' degrees in music. They had time for liberal arts in their twenties, because in their childhoods they were devoted to music. Students with extensive precollege music backgrounds have a less difficult time with double degrees. Bard has eliminated all but the most extensively prepared musicians, so they will not have such retention problems. Good for them, but I don't see what's so innovative about it.</p>
<p>Part of the difference in the double degree programs at schools like Oberlin or Indiana that are considered to have Conservatory level music programs is just the difference between the conservatories there and at a school like Julliard. The second degree just piles on top of those differences. </p>
<p>The debate as to whether one can get as quality a music performance education at a University conservatory program where one has to take academic courses while learning to play their instrument as opposed to a stand alone conservatory where one learns to play only has long been a good debate. From our research it would seem that a student has as great or greater chance of employment as a musician after graduating from a program that included an academic component as to one that was all music all the time.</p>
<p>When you pile the 6-10 courses you need to get the second degree on it adds that 5th year that most of the double degree programs, like Oberlin, automatically include.</p>
<p>The Bard model makes a great deal of sense: an academically focused high school student who is also musically talented is faced with an impossible dilemma if forced to choose between a conservatory and an academic program -- conservatories don't offer the same resources for broad intellectual growth that colleges do; colleges don't offer the level of rigor in their musical programs. Judging from the entries on CC, it seems that a musical kid who chooses Yale will often be happy with the opportunities to perform but will find it hard to practice or get the level of teaching that he or she might want; often, music performance will become a sideline. But the reality is that most musicians, even those who train at Juilliard, will not be able to make a living doing nothing but playing music -- especially those who play instruments with limited representation in orchestras, including piano and winds and percussion, and an education will be crucial to finding satisfying jobs that provide for health insurance and other necessities of life. So, again, Bard has a great idea -- oddly, though, it seems that at least in the first year, they have taken a high proportion of international students -- many of whom have the benefit of years of intensive music study throughout childhood, supported by the state, unlike American students who usually attend high schools with the demands of a full range of academic requirements but mediocre music programs, and a culture that values jazz bands but doesn't greatly understand or respect classical music (how many high school kids go to the youth orchestra concerts in which their classmates are performing? Almost none.)</p>
<p>That link to the typical course load for a double major at Bard and appears highly unlikely that someone graduating that program could be competitive for an orchestra job or post grad audition in performance.</p>
<p>Peter Lloyd former flute professor at IU and the flute player you heard in the movies playing in the Star Wars, Raiders, and many others says the students at Indiana were at disadvantage because they had to take an academic course. If he looked at that Bard schedule I can guess his response would be no way.</p>
<p>It looks more like the schedule for someone that wants to go into Biology but still would like to take a few courses to keep up their instrument. Not someone that really plans on playing music for a living.</p>
<p>The Bard site also lists the requirements for ensembles, recitals, etc., that are part of the program, which gives a clearer picture of the conservatory element. And, in truth, the academic requirements, spread out over the five years, are far less demanding than a typical degree program at Columbia, for example, where students often take five academic subjects a semester. The question would be better answered by seeing how students at Oberlin, in a well established 5 year program, fare at putting together successful music careers. By the way, many motivated students in regular academic programs -- such as at UC Berkeley, which has a music major with performance as a component, but no straight performance track -- go on to conservatory graduate programs and music careers, so it all depends.</p>