I was searching for double degree for piano and engineering and the things I found were
Columbia/Juilliard
Harvard/NEC
Tufts/NEC
JHU/Peabody
Northwestern/Bienen
Rochester/Eastman
Columbia/Barnard
CWRU/CIM
are there any more schools to add?
And do I have to get accepted into both schools to take double degree?
Yes, you need to be accepted into both programs separately for double degrees, which are different than double majors. Required reading for anyone considering double degrees: http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html
Add Michigan and Vanderbilt to your list. I donāt believe that Barnard offers a degree in Piano performance, but they must offer a BA in Music. If youāre interested in a BA in Music rather than a BM then that opens up a ton of options - just about any engineering program will offer the option of a BA or Minor in Music - including programs like MIT, RIT, Harvey Mudd etc.
Do think long and hard about what youāre looking for in a program and why you want both degrees. Thereās no reason you canāt continue to play the piano and take lessons while pursuing an Engineering degree.
For Barnard students all instrumental majoring is done at Columbia. Columbia offers a Music Performance Program and also an exchange with Juilliard (but it is NOT a double degree program). It also offers a joint BA/MM program with Juilliard, which again is not a double-degree, but may serve your purpose. Fu School of Engineering students are eligible to participate in Columbiaās MPP, which is an audition program that is based on level of playing, not on major (i.e. you donāt have to be a music major to participate).
My D is at UMich in engineering and horn performance. She also considered JHU/Peabody, Northwestern/Bienen, CWRU/CIM, CMU (has BFA, not BM) and WUStL (has BM, but caliber not the same as others - no audition required). You have to apply to both programs, be admitted to both, and in some cases also be admitted as dual degree (e.g., JHU/Peabody can accept you into music and engineering but not dual degree, in which case you can choose and enroll in only one major initially). In our experience, how well the universities coordinate across the programs with regards to offers, financial aid, etc. varies tremendously. One other thing we learned is that some colleges say you cannot apply EA for engineering because of the later audition schedule for music. However, some engineering merit scholarships require you apply by the EA deadline.
@MomOf2TeenGirls - How is your daughter coping with the demands of the two degrees? Sheās not finding it too stressful? Or, conversely, is she finding that the pursuit of the one degree is informing and supporting the pursuit of the other?
@SpiritManagerā - Iād say so far, so good. You may recall sheās only a freshman, and she went in with a lot of AP credit that helps immensely on the engineering side. From our chats, she is incredibly busy but very, very happy. She has very good advisors in both programs and her horn professor is extremely supportive, which is critical. That said, she gets no slack and must hold her own musically. Sheās taking 9-10 hours each of music and engineering classes each semester. With all the music ensembles and labs, sheās in class as much as 9 hours some days. Yet she is thriving - grades are great in both areas and sheās staying on top of everything. I would say she doesnāt really see them informing each other yet, but she loves that engineering gives her a ābreakā from music and vice-versa. She does feel her strong math background makes music theory more intuitive than some find it. She also has found several other kids in her Freshmen music classes that are dual-degree in engineering or science, so thatās another source of support if she needs it. We will see if she maintains the passion for both the next few years - itās definitely not for everyone!
@MomOf2TeenGirls - Your daughter sounds like the right student for the demands of the two programs. Interesting about the AP credits - that might not be as much help if she were at a private university like Northwestern or Johns Hopkins. I donāt know about those two in particular but many private universities do not award credits for APās although they often let one move into a higher level of the subject (something prospective students Double Degree should probably consider when looking at different programs.)
@SpiritManagerā - Privates do tend to be stingier with AP credit, but they arenāt usually too bad for engineering. Northwesternās school of engineering has a different policy than Bienen and the arts&sciences school. Iām pretty sure they give credit for AP Calc, Chem, Bio, Physics and Stats. JHU also gives credit for most of these. Both JHU and NU require 5s on many of the tests, though. But so does UMich for some of them. Bottom line, if you have a lot of AP credit, itās important to review the policies wherever you apply and ask questions if not clear. We found the policies at some schools to be quite confusing, including NU.
Bard, Oberlin and Lawrence are often mentioned for double degrees. However, for all 3 schools, engineering is offered in a different type of double degree, a ā3-2ā program in which three years are at the first school and then the last two are at an engineering school that works with the first school to offer this option.
Bardās is with Columbia and Dartmouth: http://www.bard.edu/academics/programs/3+2/
Oberlinās is with Case Western, Washington, CatlTech or Columbia http://catalog.oberlin.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=20&poid=2387&bc=1
Lawrenceās program is with Columbia, Rensselaer, and Washington http://www.lawrence.edu/academics/degrees/cooperative_degree_programs
These are five year degrees.
All three of these schools have excellent conservatories of music on campus, with the option of a 5 year degree combining a BA in the college and a BM in the conservatory. All three also have excellent BA programs in music, so it would be possible to do a BA in music and then the engineering program. Conservatory teachers might be available for lessons and since the conservatory and college are on the same campus, time management issues would be better than traveling between separate campuses or school as in the case of some other double degree options.
You could talk to these schools about whether it is possible to do music and engineering and how.
Overall both music and engineering are intense majors with sequential and foundational courses, at least for the first two years. It is a very tough combination and may require 5 years no matter how it is done. Not for the feint of heart.
So options going forward would include BM/BS in music/engineering (dual degree), BA (music or any other subject) and BS in engineering (3-2 program), or, as Spirit Manager said, an engineering degree with continued private study in piano, with music electives along the way. Just want to point out that Harvardās degree is a BA/MM, like Columbia/Juilliard, another kind of double degree.
Tufts offers a BA/BM with NEC and might be a good possibility. I know a student doing physics at Tufts who was considering the double degree (very talented jazz sax player) but he is enjoying Tuftsā own excellent music department and is sticking with one degree, the BS.
Engineering and music are intersecting in interesting ways these days, by the way, but more in the composition field.
There are a few kids who thrive with double degrees. Doing music and engineering is the most onerous combination I can think of. If your son is up to it, great, but personally I think it is a lot to handle and want to echo others in saying there are many different ways to go to satisfy both interests, short of a double degree.
ps regarding APās, even with 5ās, many students opt to take the intro course at their college: every schoolās curriculum is a little different; same with music theory
A couple of comments based on the OPās list and some of the follow on posts:
1)Columbia does not offer a BM degree (performance degree), but they do have a music performance program, so if you wanted to go there for engineering, you could study that, and take lessons, play in the orchestra and so forth, and I believe they may pay for private lessons (which in NYC, would be relatively easy to find a high level teacher).
2)The program between Columbia and Juilliard is not a dual degree program. The first level of that is the exchange program, where Columbia students can take lessons at Juilliard, and I believe can do chamber (not not orchestra there)ā¦it is relatively tough to get into.
Then there is the joint program, which normally kids apply to when in the exchange program first. This program if they get in letās them finish their studies at Columbia, then they go to Juilliard for an MM (masters, performance). Lot of kids finish Columbia in three years, then go for their masters at Juilliard. With engineering probably would take 4 years to finish the UG, but still is possible. While still at Columbia, you study with a teacher at Juilliard, same as being in the exchange program.
I believe the NEC/Harvard and NEC/Tufts Exchange works the same way, you do UG at the other school, then get your masters at NEC.
I can tell you these are not easy programs to get into, they only take a small handful of students (true of Columbia/Juilliard, and the NEC programs). I know people who got into the schools separately, but didnāt get into the joint programs, it tells you how hard it can be. (Not saying donāt try for it, just warning you might not be a likely path).
And of course, you can always get your UG degree in Engineering, take lessons, do chamber (both at Columbia, plus there is the New York Youth Symphony chamber program), then apply for a masterās degree at the school of your choice. You also donāt necessarily have to get a performance degree, you could get a dual major BA/BS in music and engineering (if the school offers a BA on the piano).
One warning, as others have said, music performance degrees (BM) are pretty intense, and engineering is really, really rough (my brother has a bachelorās and masterās from Columbia engineering), so it could be rough sledding to do a dual degree program at someplace like U Mich that offers it; not saying it isnāt possible, just warning you that despite popular perceptions that BM degrees are ālightā, they arenāt, the theory and history and ear training classes can be intense, plus with ensembles and practicing, it takes a lot of time, you arenāt going to get by as more than a few misguided parents have asked me (āMusic couldnāt be that hard? What, they have to practice an hour a day? Not a big loadā¦ā) with an hour a day practicing, it is pretty intense.
Just a note on the NEC dual degree programs - NEC/Harvard is a BA at Harvard/ MM at NEC - three years at Harvard, two at NEC. But the NEC/Tufts program is a dual degree undergraduate program - degree from Tufts (BA, BS) and BM from NEC. It takes five years. (As for any dual degree 3/2 program I always think it must be somewhat sad to miss senior year at oneās undergraduate college with all of its opportunities and academic freedoms.)
thank you so much everyone!! it really helped me decide what i should do:)
Many years ago I did a dual degree and the Hartt School/University of Hartford in music performance and chemistry. It took 4.5 years and three summers of classes. I was exhausted at the end but loved it. Just as another poster said, the chemistry gave me a ābreakā from the rigors of the conservatory and vice versa. I think I was one of the first people to attempt it but I had support from both the music side and the chemistry side. There is also an Acoustics and Music double degree option with Hartt and the College of Engineering that is a well established program. You need to be accepted to both schools. This may be another option for you.
Brownās music major has three major strands: composition, ethnomusicology and technology. The latter might also interest you. Some computer science majors get involved in music that wayā¦No performance in the major though.
The Tufts/NEC dual degree program requires students to take courses at both schools for all 5 years, so there is no missing out on senior year at Tufts. While Harvard/NEC is a 3/2 program, Tufts/NEC is 5 years at both institutions.
Harvard students are still spending time in studies at Harvard in the 4th year, and are involved at NEC all 5 years, so itās not really a 3/2 program in the same sense that some engineering programs are. The Harvard/NECprogram is billed as a ā5 year dual degree programā :
"The NEC/Harvard program is a joint five-year program of studies leading to a Bachelor of Arts (AB) at Harvard College and a Master of Music (MM) at New England Conservatory. The program benefits musically- and intellectually-talented students who wish to pursue both a professional music education at NEC and a rigorous liberal arts education at Harvard.
During the first three years of the program, students will pursue the AB curriculum in the concentration of their choice at Harvard and take studio instruction each semester at NEC. Ensemble participation at either institution is encouraged for these three years of study. Students must perform a promotional at NEC at the end of each year to determine continued progress in their musical study. The promotional at the end of the third year also serves as an audition confirming the studentās readiness to begin the Master of Music at NEC. In the fourth year, students will complete all requirements for the AB degree at Harvard while beginning to fulfill NECās MM requirements. Students will receive the Master of Music from NEC after successful completion of the fifth year of study."
Note that admission to the double degree program is also possible after freshman year.
I think we need to make sure we are defining terms, the Harvard/NEC program is similar to what the Juilliard/Columbia program (including that getting the MM is not an automatic, if the student doesnāt progress musically, they wonāt get the MM).
Here are the definitions as I understand it:
1)Dual degree- This is kind of like, for example, Bard does , and from what i know what Tufts/NEC is like, where you get a bachelors at the academic school (BA/BS) and a performance degree (BM). It is a true dual degree, you come out with two separate bachelorās degree.
2)Double degree- This is the track that Harvard/NEC and Juilliard/Columbia take, which is you get a bachelors at the academic school, all the while taking lessons at the music school, then when you finish the bachelorās (or are near finished with it), you get your masterās from the music school, an MM. So it is a BA/BS (academic), MM (music).
One of the things with double degrees is that even once you get into the program, you arenāt guaranteed they will necessarily let you go for the MM, if they feel you arenāt progressing, arenāt at the masterās level, they will say no (this happened to a family we know with Juilliard, was in the joint program/double degree, and when it came time, they said he wasnāt at the level needed to go for the MM.
I think ādualā and ādoubleā are interchangeable terms. Actually, the Bard site calls it a ādouble degree.ā http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/undergraduate/ If you google you will also see reference to Bardās ādual degreeā program.
Some ādoubleā degrees are two bachelorās, some are bachelorās and masterās. Either can also be termed ādual.ā The salient point is two degrees, not which type, from what I understand.
No degree program of any kind is guaranteed if performance, academically (or musically) is not up to standard.
My understanding of dual and double degrees is the same as @compmomā. Two degrees are awarded. This is different than dual/double major, in which only one degree is awarded, e.g. BS in mechanical engineering and mathematics. Iāve also heard the term ācombined degreeā used for double degree programs (2 bachelors, bachelor/master, and also BS/MD programs).
And to confuse things even more, some schools have combined/inter college degree programs such as the BXA program at CMU. Their BSA (bachelor of science and arts) allows students to combine studies in the sciences and fine arts, but awards one BSA degree rather than a BS and a BA/BM/BFA.