Double Degree: Top Academics/Solid Music Program

College Majors Music Major
1

Hello,
My son is interested in a double degree program with a BM and a BA/S, possibly in biochemistry. He has recently switched piano teachers, and the new teacher thinks a top conservatory is probably out of reach for his level of playing, though she said Vanderbilt would probably be a good fit. He has had to scrap his planned repertoire for easier pieces that he can play perfectly. He is equally interested in both areas, so he’d come to the conclusion a conservatory-style music program within a larger university was probably the best fit anyway. His academic cred is probably higher than his music. He’s got an unweighted GPA of 4.0 with 9 AP classes under his belt as a junior. He received 1590 on the SAT. He wants a top-notch academic school with a strong music program. He’s going to give the next 8 months everything in terms of practice for his audition to correct the deficiencies indicated by the new teacher. His first choice would be Northwestern. He should be competitive there academically, and I know the audition would be a reach. My question is 2-fold: 1) What are other top-notch academic schools with solid music programs? Vanderbilt is certainly on the list. 2) If my son were to ED Northwestern for the dual degree program, and the audition was not strong enough for admittance for the BM, would they admit Academic-only with the possibility of a BA Music and potential later audition into the BM?

Thank you.

2

I believe at NU, an ED applicant to dual degree who only gets into one of the degree programs is no longer bound by the agreement, but they wouldn’t be able to pursue any degree in Bienen without getting accepted there.

For other schools, off the top of my head, check out CMU, NYU, USC, and Miami.

3

I would add U Michigan and Rice to the list.

4

Johns Hopkins/Peabody, Oberlin?

5

My understanding is Rice does not support double degrees for their music major students.
Consider URochester, Indiana U, St. Olaf, Lawrence U.

6

Hello @MittWit - Congratulations on your son’s excellent academic achievements, they will definitely open some doors for him on this journey. Dean Jacobs at the Bienen School of Music at Northwestern was able to answer some very detailed questions we had about dual degree, so consider reaching out to her via phone or email. She knows all of the ins and outs. If you have questions about whether his new audition rep will be competitive at various schools, check the admission pages for those schools to see what the prescreen requirements say about required rep and/or consider reaching out to the professors at those schools and ask those questions. In general, audition pieces that are very well done and allow the student to also demonstrate musicality, emotion and glimmers of potential are usually well-received by audition panels. Good luck to you both.

7

My kid is just coming through applying to a large range of schools dual degree as a high stat academic kid. Schools of music within larger universities have shown much more love toward him as a multi-interested student. We got mixed feedback on dual degrees even from programs that widely advertise dual degree as an option. I’d say ask faculty your student would be working with about dual degree. Ask music admissions, etc. I honestly get the feel that filtered my kid out of the music side in a couple programs and then he got in with generous merit on the academic side with encouragement about pursuing music. He literally had one faculty member at a program telling him he could NOT dual degree in a program that widely advertises it and we know students personally who’ve done it. But if that faculty is the one looking at your prescreen/audition and deciding if you should be in the program that draws many more applicants than spots, well it’s probably not going to end well.

Anyway - my kid has several affordable and great offers. But I have no regrets about spreading a wide net. And obviously programs that advertise dual degree HAVE those students. I just get the feeling different faculty/departments might feel differently about it. When we were visiting programs we met a surprising number of dual degree students who added the 2nd degree after starting the first. Including students who started on the academic side which really surprised me. Hind sight, we may have spread a slightly different net.

Schools like NU and Michigan and UMiami would be great on the reachy end. I was super impressed with Michigan and how open they are with academic students. Look at the faculty at your flagship U options. Some of the LACs do dual degree, but again, mixed thoughts directly from faculty for us so ask the hard questions to both music admissions and faculty when visiting if it’s a priority for your son.

1 Like
8

Oh - I was also going to say if he’s open to 2 BA’s that opens all sorts of possibilities. Many U’s have an applied BA or BS in music as well which may pair with another degree a little easier. I believe NU does. But many may still have an audition requirement. It just depends how many credits your kid comes in with, if they’re ok with going over 4 years (and the financial end of that), end goals, likelihood of grad programs, etc. Hindsight, I wish my kid would have had a couple clear BA only programs on his list instead of thinking about it after the fact.

My kid is probably going to end up at a strong academic U honors program with a good music program. We’ve actually been SO impressed with the music faculty. Faculty spots are so competitive everywhere, I think you can have a great experience in many music programs. My kid has had a couple different teachers that are anxious to have him in their program and have been generous financially so that has made direction fairly clear.

If you haven’t read the dual degree dilemma post somewhere on this board, I recommend finding it!

9

It is very difficult to do a dual BM +BA/BS at USC. My son went in wanting to do BM Guitar and BS Math – would take 5 years, and even with the 20 credits he is allowed to take as a Trustee Scholar (most students are only allowed up to 18 units per semester), it was too much for him the first year. Because math is in a different school (Dornsife), he would have had to fulfill all of that school’s requirements, which includes three language semesters. To get both degrees he would have had to do 20 units all four years PLUS summer courses. He will probably do a math minor, which is very easy to do, but not what he initially wanted.

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@astute12 To me, it doesn’t sound like the dual degree is any different at USC than at other schools. It sounds like your son had a somewhat unreasonable expectation to finish in 4 years, whereas these dual programs are designed to be finished in 5.

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First, as someone else said, it might be helpful to read the Double Degree Dilemma essay posted closer to the top of this forum, written by David Lane, former head of admissions at Peabody. It is really about all the different ways to study music.

Second, it is hard to do a double degree in science. Music and science both have intense schedules, and foundational courses with a set sequence, often, so the combination is tough. There ARE kids who do it but I have no idea how!

Your son sounds like a kid who would do really well going to a college or university to major in science for a BS. He could then do lessons and performance as an extracurricular (and some schools give credit for this, and even fund lessons). He can even study privately outside of the school, depending on location.

Another possibility is double major, with music and science, but again, both have intense schedules.

In either case, he would then want to actually avoid universities and colleges that DO have BM programs, since the best opportunities and teachers tend to go to the BM students- though that is not universally true so ask.

If he follows the non-BM path, he would usually do a music supplement with recording, music resume and letters of recommendation from teachers or director. But he doesn’t have to.

This approach would relieve him of the stress of preparing for auditions and he could enjoy music. There are auditions on campus for extracurricular performance for BA programs.

One other option might be Harvard,which, rather than BA/BM. has a BA/MM with NEC. Students pretty much go to Harvard their first two years and then for the last two they spend more time at NEC.

I will say that I know some really talented musicians who did not major in music at Harvard but went on to grad school at top programs. They may be exceptionally talented. I have no idea.

So there are many paths. That essay by Lane kind of lays them out pretty clearly.

ps a BM will be 2/3-3/4 classes in music and a BA will be 1/4-1/3 as you probably know
pps some good schools for music that don’t have a BM program include Tufts, Vassar, Wesleyan (world music), Brown, Yale (School of Music is there but often students have grad students for teachers), Williams…many others
Double degree programs that may be good would be Bard, Oberlin, Lawrence, Ithaca, Tufts/NEC, Harvard/NEC, Hopkins/Peabody, Eastman/Rochester…and many others.

PMed you about one school…

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@albertsax Except that everyone we talked to at USC before he committed told us it wouldn’t be a problem and that he could do it in 4 years…this is true if you double major within the music school at USC, but if you want to do a major in the college of arts and sciences it isn’t.

13

Double major is different from double degree. Maybe that was the mix up at USC-??

14

Thank you all. I had read the Double Degree Dilemma, but you have all brought up several other important considerations and alternative paths to continuing musical study at various levels, as well as some non-BM schools certainly worthy of consideration. Thank goodness for a forum like this, as this process is a lot more complicated than my straightforward liberal arts degree.

15

@MittWit, I also have a son who is planning to pursue a dual degree or double major. He’s a high school senior now and hasn’t committed to a school yet so I can’t speak from experience, but based on my research it does seem like the AP classes will provide a boost both in terms of credits needed to graduate and, at some schools, the fulfillment of general education requirements. As an example, at one of the schools my son is considering, students need to take two science classes as part of the general education requirements. But, my son was thrilled to discover that his AP Biology and AP Chemistry classes satsify those requirements, leaving two open slots that he can use to start taking classes in his non-music major in sooner than he otherwise would.

16

Going into a double degree or a double major can be tough. My violinist son and I went through the same consideration a couple years ago. We looked at all options, read the Double Degree Dilemma, received wonderful and helpful feedback here. Ultimately, my son was the one who had a change of his heart, i.e., that he didn’t want to be a career musician. Fortunately for us, he made up his mind just before a round of auditioning trips all over the country, saving us valuable time and money. He did want to continue his interest in performing in ensembles and solo opportunities, so it was very important that the colleges we looked at had such programs.

OP stated that his or her son’s “interested in a double degree program” but without getting into any reasons why. Is it because the son could potentially pursue a career in music but isn’t sure? I think it’d make things a whole lot easier if the family is very clear about why pursuing a double degree or a double major is desirable. Obviously, like my son, if a career in music is out of the consideration from early on, then the road ahead is less bumpy moving forward. Remember, too, that you don’t need a double degree or double major to “sit on the career fence.” You can major in whatever that’s non-music related, yet go on to an MM degree later at a conservatory. My son, for example, is currently pursuing a BA degree at Princeton, but he’s continuing to take private lessons (college funded) and participating in the orchestra and another ensemble while on pre-med track. By the time he graduates, should he have changed his mind about his career in music, he could audition for an MM degree elsewhere. In fact, Princeton has a wonderful program which allows students to take a semester of music study at the Royal College of Music in London in Jr. year. If a student wants to pursue music, then the student simply audition for an MM degree at the end of the semester. The successful student then has the choice of returning to RCM upon graduation from Princeton for an MM degree in one year or pursue something else. So, it is a BA or BS/MM 5-year program like Harvard/NEC and other similar programs except with lots of flexibility. Princeton also offers the Certificate in Music Performance, which is open to rising juniors and designed to provide “a solid foundation for students who may wish to pursue professional music training at the graduate level.”

So, do look at all different options out there, not just a double degree/major route.

17

Thank you, @TiggerDad. Clearly, we are new to this (hence the post) and were operating under the mistaken assumption that, if you have to audition for it, and it’s selective, it’s necessarily better. Double degree may be the best option for some, but hearing all of the advice, I think it would be too overwhelming given my son’s varied interests. There are other paths that so many have illuminated here. If I had to characterize my son, he’s a “keep all doors open” on his passions type. It is so great to hear that pursuing a BA with a music performance track need not close any. That also increases the number of viable schools, which is great because of the rarified air that some of these are in acceptance-wise. He’ll have to apply to many.

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I agree with TiggerDad. My daughter did the pure conservatory route but has a number of friend who went to academic programs (including Princeton, Harvard, etc) and took private lessons then auditioned for and were accepted to top MM programs. Some continued in music and others then went to law school or whatever, but had the great pleasure and experiences of getting the music masters. Going to an academic program doesn’t necessarily mean giving up music. But location is important. For example, Princeton students can easily commute to NY for lessons, but if you’re at a more remote location you’d likely be studying with the college faculty only. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, either.

19

@MittWit – “Double degree may be the best option for some, but hearing all of the advice, I think it would be too overwhelming given my son’s varied interests.”

My son also has varied interests, within music and without. In fact, too many to have become problematic (taking a gap year after having secured college admissions and making the commitment to Princeton became a great solution for him and for us). One of things that I as a parent wanted to make sure during his high school years was to not having him missing out on unique experiences that high school years had to offer – homecomings, school plays, parties, proms, etc. – and likewise I don’t want him to miss out on things that college years have to offer. That’s another reason that dissuaded us from pursuing a double degree/major route. Although my son’s current pursuit of BA while on pre-med track is in effect a “double major” and poses a challenge in terms of scheduling, he still seems to manage his academic load, orchestra rehearsals (2-3 hours a day, 3-4 times a week) and concerts (4 times a school year), Opus 21 (a chamber group with its own concerts and other events), a weekly private lessons, playing tennis, dating and other social life. I think the only extracurricular activity that he wants to pursue but unable to is being on a volleyball club team.

If your son’s interested in majoring in biochem and also to pursue pre-med, that’d make things easier as some courses do overlap.

20

Glassharmonica points out the importance of location, and I can’t agree more. When we were considering a remotely located college like Williams, for example, we had to make sure that there’s at least an in-house violin faculty and other music programs that were suitable for my son’s needs, as well as meeting his academic needs. We really liked Williams, in spite of its remote location. There’s a violin faculty that my son could have worked with. In fact, to our surprise, this violin faculty had reached out to my son, about two months before the Williams admission results were officially announced, to join her invitation only masterclass sessions in Europe.

Another, but not as remote, college that we looked at was Amherst. We were attracted to this college for the reason that it had an open curriculum that was highly desirable for anyone pursuing a double degree/major or a pre-med. My friend’s son did just that at Amherst, graduating with a double major and now preparing to apply to med schools. However, while Amherst’s open curriculum was ideal for meeting my son’s academic needs, we deemed it faring rather poorly when it came to my son’s need to continue his violin studies.

UPenn, on the other hand, was great location wise with its proximity to Curtis and other musical resources. Etc.