I am a high school junior considering applying to Duke ED next fall. I was wondering if anyone could tell me how well accepted students are on campus who come from a middle class family.
What do you mean by middle class? Most Americans consider themselves middle-class, but that identification can vary from incomes of $70k/yr to incomes of $200k/yr.
^ How would your answer matter to whether the definition is $70K or close to $200K?
I respectfully suggest the OP’s principal concern is how well Dukies – of all backgrounds – live, work and play together. Duke has a history of students benefiting from each other and enjoying the diversity of the campus tremendously; the undergraduates’ “work hard, play hard” culture is fully integrated with broad diversity. The simple fact is, Dukies generally like, respect, and enjoy each other. Perhaps current students and recent alumni could address this issue and assist the OP?
I’m not a current student, but I think a couple of points here might allay the OP’s undercurrent of concern that Duke is a “rich kids” school. First off, Duke is quite diverse across any metric universities commonly measure. If you look at the class profile for this year’s freshmen, that comes across very clearly. Secondly, Duke is “need blind” in admissions, and their financial aid packages are intended to back that up. The university hasn’t gone completely “no loans” in financial aid, but my understanding is that remains a mid-term goal as long as finances stay strong. Finally, I’d note reports that 45% of Duke students receive some form of need-based financial aid. That number may sound low, but at most of the top ten schools I’ve researched full pays still make up between 45-55% of the class.
So, what does that mean for you? Well, there will always be some kids on any college campus with a lot of money, and they tend to stand out. But as TopTier suggested, the Duke community has a lot of activities and common interests that bind it together as one community, and it seems to me as if most students, regardless of their backgrounds coming into Duke, find a good group of friends and never feel out of place on campus. All I know is that the Duke my son attends seems like a much more interesting, diverse, and exciting place than the one I attended – and I thought the one I attended was pretty great.
http://admissions.duke.edu/images/uploads/process/DukeClass2018Profile.pdf
As a current student, I’m actually going to push back a little on what alum have said. While it is true that Duke is diverse, I’d like to point to this [recent Chronicle article](www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2015/01/20/duke-stands-alone-among-peers-merit-based-scholarship-priorities), which notes that only
And while this information is a little out of date, as this [Chronicle article from 2010](http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2010/03/31/duke-draws-rich-kids-all-colors) points out:
and
KellyNoel Waldorf, a current Duke alum recently featured for her work in the College Advising Corps, wrote this powerful Chronicle column a little more than a year ago regarding [what it’s like to be poor at Duke](http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/11/11/i-came-duke-empty-wallet).
Anecodatally, while I do have a good group of friends, I think it’s not at all true to say that you would never feel out of place, if your family income lies towards the $70k/yr end of things (as mine does). In fact, even if I find people who are “like me”, that small group of us still feel out of place at an institution like Duke and isolated from a large part of campus who remain continually unaware.
So, to answer another question about how my answer changes depending on which end of “middle-class” you identify: upper-middle class students will probably feel out of place very little; lower-middle class students may feel out of place quite a bit.
However, as a student who has only been at Duke, I don’t know if this would be the same at peer institutions (that identify as elite and predominately white (and wealthy)). I suspect so (and this is not a feeling unique to Duke, but this has been my experience at Duke).
Thank you, @SomeOldGuy, for this GREAT post. I want to add a small “data nit.” Need-based undergraduate financial aid is VERY dominant (in dollar value and in number of student-recipients), BUT Duke also provides some exceptionally generous merit-based scholarships (Robertson, B N and A D Duke, and so forth). MANY of those “full ride” merit-based scholarship are annually awarded to undergraduates from less-affluent circumstances. Therefore, when you combine need- and merit-based FA, about 50 percent of each class receives some – often a lot – of no-repaymant-required financial aid from Duke.
It would probably be fair, in addition, to thank the Annual Fund and endowment donors, whose very real sacrifices make this possible. There’s another current CC thread that provided an excellent analysis of Duke’s need-based FA: “Duke (annually) spent $16,551 per . . . undergraduate or $42,489 per (need based) recipient.”
$16.5K yearly for every undergraduate – or $42.5K annually for every need-based recipient – does a LOT to ensure broad economic and social diversity at Duke.
@purpleacorn (re post #5): With lots of respect, I believe your conclusions are incorrect because you assume that “financial need worthy” undergraduates ONLY receive need-based grants. That’s entirely untrue. Approximately half of Duke’s undergraduates receive no-reppayment-required grants or scholarships, in aggregate need-based grants dominate FA, the average annual need-based grant is about $42+K. HOWEVER, many of our merit-based scholarships (Robertson, B N and A B Duke, etc.) are annually awarded to individuals who otherwise would receive MAJOR need-based FA. The Chronicle’s article did not combine these two groups and, therefore, significantly understates the extent of financial assistance provided to undergraduates from less-affluent backgrounds. Perhaps you made the same error?
@purpleacorn: I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve been (more or less) in your shoes, and I hope that the proportion of the time where you feel like Duke truly is your place continues to grow. You’ve given me some fodder for a conversation I may want to have with my kid over spring break.
@purpleacorn: I have learned, through CC, that you’re an honest and perceptive individual, and I wonder if you’d answer a question? Of the undergraduates in the <$100K or <$70K annual family income categories, roughly what percentage do you feel might frequently (not occasionally) feel “out of place.” I ask because I attended Duke with 100 percent of my costs borne by the taxpayers and, while I never felt out of place, I sometimes knew that I could not afford non-Duke/non-academic things my peers could (an example would be expensive Spring Breaks). Obviously this was NOT a Duke issue and I never felt it adversely affected me. Incidentally, I will tell you that Duke’s senior leadership is aware of this non-Duke expenses concern, but will probably opt for more – and greater – need-based grants than for stipends (at least in the near-term). Thank you.
" With lots of respect, I believe your conclusions are incorrect because you assume that “financial need worthy” undergraduates ONLY receive need-based grants. That’s entirely untrue."
That may be untrue at Princeton and Penn as well; therefore the comparison may be largely valid.
@wayneandgarth (re #10): I’m sorry, but I am quite sure you’re wrong. Duke provides both merit- and need-based FA to undergraduates, whereas Princeton and Penn have ONLY need-based grants. Therefore, it’s fair to add need-based and merit-based FA for Dukies, who require help, BUT none of the Ivies have any merit-based FA to add to their need-based grants AND, therefore, the comparison is invalid.
Ahh - ok, if that is true you are most right sir.
To answer someone’s previous questions, by middle class I mean 60k a year.
@TopTier- Having known many of the scholarship recipients (and being good friends with them), you’re right that a good number may come from family circumstances with financial need. However, there are also a good number that do not and come from pretty affluent families, and the scholarship programs are all over the map in terms of diversity (with, anecodtally, the AB being (in my own perception and in the words of AB scholars themselves) the least diverse).
And so while a certain number may have otherwise received major financial aid, a good number would have received only a little financial aid or none at all While I understand that many of these scholarships are endowed, the fact still remains that only 39% of the student body receives aid strictly based on need, and our continued committment to our merit scholarship programs (while attracting incredible high-school seniors to choose Duke when they otherwise may have not) may come at the cost of socioeconomic diversity at Duke. I agree that a better statistic would be students at Duke who would qualify for grant-based financial aid (and not loans), including merit scholarship receipeints. However, my anecodatal understanding is that many, if not most, scholarship recipients of BN/AB/Robertson scholarships (because I understand Karsh and I believe Mastercard scholars are need-based, and I’m not sure of the Reggie Howard or University scholars program) would not be eligible for significant aid at Duke.
Until such a statistic is available, however, I believe the 39% is more indicative of socioeconomic diversity on this campus than the 50% that Duke often uses. (Also, only [14% of students at Duke receive Pell Grants](http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools), which puts us on par with schools like Yale (at 13%) but behind Columbia (30%), Emory (22%), and Harvard (19%).)
And while the administration continues to be working on it, there’s still a long while to go. Of these initiatives here here, we do have a new Director of Access/Outreach (Justin Clapp), who is trying to change Duke’s 1G network into the kind of support system at many other schools that provides actual continued support for students. However, a friend who is going on a course-required trip had to pay out of pocket for vaccinations/required committment that totalled several hundered dollars this semester, and the first-year dining plan (which allots students a little under $4 for lunch every day, a practically impossible task on campus) has still not been changed.
But what’s most striking about the report mentioned [URL=<a href=“http://undergraduatedean.duke.edu/uploads/media_items/socioeconomic-diversity-report.original.pdf%5Dhere%5B/URL”>http://undergraduatedean.duke.edu/uploads/media_items/socioeconomic-diversity-report.original.pdf]here[/URL] is that a lot of times, it’s not directly a Duke-related administrative thing, but the effects of SES come about in the course of living and student life. You’re correct that financial aid is generous-- with aid, I’ll be able to study abroad this summer, and I’m ecstatic. But it’s also about a system that does not allow for unpaid work internships (something the administration has vaguely mentioned wanting to change), and has led me to take two jobs over the school year and work on top of a full-time internship over the summer to meet the summer earnings requirement. It’s a system that affects when and where people go on Spring Break (and the conversations surrounding that) and the casual way in which people decide to go off-campus to eat or go out on the weekends (not thinking to provide other options because the ability to not worry about money literally does not cross their mind) and the disparity in technologies (smart phone vs ‘normal’ phone; Apple computer v. netbook)-- and my family is lower middle-class (in the $70k range). Additionally, work committments have ensured that I’m not able to go to as many academic talks/networking opportunities (because I am working), and meant that I was not as able to consider projects in organizations like Student Government (again, because I work), and this is typically the type of thing that just isn’t talked about (but the leaders in Student Governement often have meetings scheduled throughout days in a way that would not work for me).
To answer the question about how “out of place” I feel, there’s a sense of acculturation that’s happened. I feel out of place in a lot of Duke-wide events (and the comments my peers can make in class about race or SES status affirm that difference), but I’ve also made mental separations between “my” Duke (where I have friends that come from similar family backgrounds and look like me in cultural communities of color) and “that” Duke (which is the Duke that is featured in brochures and the Duke that I believe most administrators are talking about) that has money and is predominately white.
And like I’ve said before, I don’t think this is a problem unique to Duke (and is probably a concern at most elite, predominately white institutions), and additionally, it’s also a cultural phenomenon that not a single policy can fix. But it has definitely affected my Duke experience, and to say that I feel comfortable among the majority of Duke students or have never felt out of place because I go to an incredibly ‘diverse’ campus is simply not true of my experience.
@purpleacorn: I deeply appreciate your excellent and extensive post and the time/effort you devoted to it. It helps me greatly and I will re-read and use it – especially what it conveys beyond the words alone – in informal discussions with leadership on campus. Again, I really do appreciate it.
I also want to offer you one individual’s opinion, worth no more and no less than any other Dukie’s. The core problem, it seems to, is we simply need more FA money, especially endowments. As a side note, my wife and I are deeply committed to this, we’ve already endowed one scholarship at Duke, ALL of our annual giving is allocated for FA, and (as I reach 70 in somewhat over a year) we will begin to convert my IRA-type funds to further endowed scholarships. In aggregate, that needed additional endowment funding is actually happening, however, it takes a long time because the financial requirements are so large (to illustrate, a $1M endowment donation would annually cover about 80 percent of one undergraduate’s yearly tuition (but no books, room/board, or anything else). However, we are clearly making steady, ceaseless progress.
I also want to offer one additional opinion: I favor a mix of merit- and need-based FA, scholarships and grants, however, with need-based grants the clearly dominant element. I do so because I believe rare performance and potential should be recognized and rewarded, BUT that making a Duke education – and ALL that truly encompasses – truly affordable to all who deserve admission and matriculation is even more crucial. I would not want to see Duke adopt the policy many of our peer institutions have of all need-based and no merit-based FA (and, frankly, the legal strictures inherent in long-standing endowments such as the B N and the A B Dukes might be very difficult to alter).
Well, for whatever it’s worth, that succinctly summarizes my views on this subject.
Thanks again for your help and your outstanding post. GTHC, GTH!
Just for reference, both the Duke Chronicle and the Daily Princetonion have fascinating and well written articleso n this subject where students came out as “poor”, which was how they described themselves not trying to be perjorative, and explained the challenges. What came through in both articles was both the reality of the challenge and also how the schools still were supportive and worthwhile. As a former student, long time ago, my personal perspective is not worth much but these articles are current. If you have students with cars, and with hundreds of dollars to spend on a fancy dinner, there is not much the university can do about it beyond making the campus offerings free or los cost and available, which Duke does. But as to the facts, I think Duke provides substantial support to families with gross income of less than 100,000 and it is affordable.
@TopTier- thank you for those kind words, and for you and your family’s donations to Duke. I do mean it when I say that I appreciate the generosity of Duke financial aid and those donors, and a part of me does remember that my presence at this University is in no small part because of the generosity of others towards their alma mater.
@purpleacorn (re #17). You – in particular – are welcome. Further, I would ask, many decades from now and if it’s reasonable with some sacrifices, that you consider adding to Duke’s endowed scholarship and/or annual giving need-based FA “pots,” to ensure others like you and I have similar – splendid – opportunities, which simply could never have happened without “other peoples’ money” and, much more important, their generosity of both spirit and treasury.
I came from a relatively lower class family and attended Duke as a Pell Grant recipient. That never made me feel at all out of place on campus. In fact, I didn’t realize quite how much money some of my classmates had until I found out their (very expensive and exotic) spring break plans my freshman year.
One of the nice things about attending a wealthy university is that Duke hosts a ton of free events, which is great for students without money to burn. It also frequently offers free or very reduced tickets to local things in the area (Hurricanes hockey tickets, DPAC tickets, etc.). Though gentrifying, Durham itself is also relatively cheap and affordable for students – certainly a great deal more so than most major cities – allowing students to go out and have fun without breaking the bank.
The percentage of students on financial aid does not tell the whole story. Here at UCLA, for example, you have a higher percentage of low income students than at any top private university. However, the cost of events on campus ($10-15 for performances, football/basketball games, etc.), the crazy expense of a lot of bars/restaurants/clubs/movies/etc. in LA, and the lack of good UCLA-community partnerships (outside of some very expensive amusement park and movie packages) means there’s quite a bit of socioeconomic segregation going on. I think odds are good a lower class student would actually feel more left out here than at Duke.