Duke or Williams

<p>Hi!</p>

<p>I am a high school senior who has committed to Williams but was recently taken off of the waitlist at Duke. I have visited both schools and like each one tremendously. I would study biomedical engineering at Duke and most likely biology and physics at Williams. </p>

<p>Although I am a math and science person, I love the social sciences and humanities as well. (Side note: I have not had any experience in the field of engineering but I think it might be a fascinating subject to study. I probably won't pursue biomedical engineering after college since I am interested in medical school.)</p>

<p>I am enormously conflicted between these two schools since, although the environments could not be more different, I can see myself enjoying both schools. This is the classic liberal arts college vs university question.</p>

<p>I am leaning towards each school for specific reasons. Duke offers the option of engineering, a much more rigorous research setting, a medical school on campus, and a much less isolated campus with more things to do outside of campus than at Williams (and also more food options).</p>

<p>Meanwhile, Williams possesses a liberal arts education that seems like it might be more intensive than that at Duke and the school also allows math/science students to explore much more of the humanities and social sciences. The professors at Williams are all focused on teaching as well. However, for me, coming from a suburban area, I worry that Williams might be too isolated from everything (in terms of things to do and also food options.)</p>

<p>At this point in time, I am considering medical school after college so the topic of which school is better at sending students to medical school might also play a factor.</p>

<p>I think that I would be more comfortable living at Duke than at Williams but I also feel that Williams's academics are stronger, which is a huge factor in what I am looking for in a college.</p>

<p>Duke is also offering around $15000 more in financial aid.</p>

<p>If you have any suggestions or advice on what to do in this situation, I would greatly appreciate it.</p>

<p>Thanks so much,
Conflicted</p>

<p>Honestly, this seems like a no-brainer to me. The difference in academics between Duke and Williams is negilible and I would actually give the edge to Duke if you are interested in BME. Plus, you like the enviroment at Duke and the money is on your side.</p>

<p>Sent from my HTC Vision using CC</p>

<p>There may be a more rigorous research setting at Duke, but you’ll get an actual research position at Williams. I know a few freshmen who will be doing impressive work in the Williams bio labs this summer, and I’m not sure stuff like that happens at Duke so easily. Science research at Williams is very student-oriented–it may not be large-scale cancer research, but the positions are rewarding, the highest of quality, very easy to get, and exactly what medical schools are looking for.</p>

<p>In terms of your question about which is generally better in sending students to med school, I think a response either way is moot. I’m pretty sure Williams is ranked higher as a med-feeder school…but I think such close rankings are meaningless relative to what you’re doing on an individual level at each school. </p>

<p>Williams is small and rural, but I have never heard of anyone being bored here. There is more than enough to do, especially because your free time is pretty limited…I don’t know what you’d be expecting to do off campus at either school. All the parties and events are right on campus. And I’m not sure what you mean by less food options…there are three full-time dining halls in addition to an incredible variety and amount of restaurants within walking distance or just a short drive. There are literally eleven great restaurants sitting in the middle of campus on Spring St…no more than a ten-minute walk from any dorm. </p>

<p>But then again, if you really want a bio major, physics major, and pre-med track, you won’t be able to take much advantage of the different humanities and social sciences…room for a few electives to fulfill divisional requirements, but that’s about it. Majoring in the non-sciences might even more common than majoring in bio among Williams pre-med students.</p>

<p>I’m a class of 2016 student so I have no first-hand experience with research at Duke, but from what I’ve heard, its pretty easy to obtain a position.</p>

<p>And normally, I would say that difference in strength between Williams and Duke is negilible enough that it should come down to personal preference. But OP is already more inclined towards Duke’s atmosphere and there’s more financial aid. I think unless he finds something enticing about Williams to justify paying 60k more, the money should have already decided for him.</p>

<p>Sent from my HTC Vision using CC</p>

<p>You’d get more research opportunities at Williams (and I’d prefer Williams, personally), but with the extra money, I’d take Duke in a heartbeat.</p>

<p>Go to Duke. It’s considerably cheaper and you seem to like the atmosphere there more. The difference, if there even is one which there most probably isn’t, is negligible in prestige, academic rigor, reputation, ability to do research, etc. You MUST seize the opportunity at either place; they’ll give you everything, you just gotta take it. carpe diem baby.</p>

<p>If Duke is 15k cheaper, I’d say go there and save the money for med school as both universities are great academically, so one being much cheaper should play a factor.</p>

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<p>I see that you are 16. Have you even gotten into or even visited either school to make a qualified claim that OP will “get more research opportunities at Williams”?</p>

<p>$15k/year difference? Yeah, I’d definitely recommend saving $60k for med school. They are peer schools from an academic standpoint and I would suggest choosing one over the other based on fit. From your description, it sounds like you see pros/cons for both and don’t have a strong affinity to one of the other - if anything, your interest in engineering should give Duke the edge. But the $60,000 difference over four years is what majorly tips the scale in Duke’s favor. Williams is obviously a great school too though. Good luck.</p>

<p>Firstly, I would choose Duke, especially if you’re going into Biomedical engineering. With an undergraduate degree in any engineering, you are practically guaranteed a job in the market incase medical school does not work out. This type of financial stability would be harder to achieve if you go to Williams.
Second, the extra $60,000 in your pocket is worth something in itself.
The atmosphere around Duke should be much more comfortable for you since you’ve grown up in a suburban area. If you had already visited Williamstown, you’ve seen that there’s nothing there except for the college. The closest store is three miles away from the campus! Winters are relatively snowy and cold. Unless you love freezing temperatures, I wouldn’t recommend going there. It’s much easier and cheaper to get into and out of Duke from anywhere in the United States.</p>

<p>S1, Class of 2015, just finished his Freshman year at Williams. S2, Class of 2016, is attending Duke this Fall. They are such different schools that besides FA, I don’t see how they can both be equally appealing. Personally, S1 would be lost at Duke…and thrives at Williams. And S2 would suffocate at Williams. S1 and S2 are at colleges that are uniquely appealing to them. They’re both fabulous schools! Congratulations!</p>

<p>One thing that confuses me is that Duke would take you off their waitlist and then give you $15,000 more than Williams, which had already accepted you in the first place. Are you getting some sort of merit scholarship from Duke? I’ve never heard of a Williams student who is receiving less financial aid than they need. </p>

<p>I’m assuming then that you’re referring to 15k over 4 years (correct me if I’m wrong), in which case it is certainly worth calling the Williams financial aid office to see if they can match Duke’s offer, if you’re still interested. These numbers just don’t seem right to me. </p>

<p>Zonlicht, maybe EliKresses hasn’t experienced both schools, but I’m a pre-dental student at Williams and I know undergraduate science students at Duke. Though at least a semester-long research position at Duke is attainable for upper-class science majors, the goal of Williams research is not necessarily for the professors to make groundbreaking discoveries, but quite literally to educate students in working the labs and in producing work worthy of significant journals. That is exactly what pre-health students need, and the most they can really expect. Of course there is still the passion for the research itself, but the whole reason science professors choose Williams is because they have a passion for teaching undergraduates.</p>

<p>Engineering is a rather different game, but if Williamsorduke is quite intent on med school, the vocational aspects of an engineering degree won’t be necessary unless he/she chooses to go into biomedical engineering after med school. If the engineering is purely an intellectual interest, I think that would also be served by a math/physics/bio degree from a LAC. </p>

<p>I also come from a suburban area–the rural nature of Williamstown is not isolating for me at all. If you’re going to classes and labs in the day and doing all your work through the evening and night, when would you expect to leave campus anyway? All the stores, shops, and restaurants you need are within walking distance from any dorm in addition to a movie theater and one of the world’s finest art collections. You’re in the center of an idyllic farming town surrounded by beautiful mountains (amazing hiking!), but the culture surrounding the campus is more urbane and sophisticated than any suburb I’ve been in. If that’s still not enough, you can always hop into a Zipcar–North Adams is a city-like town (with a Walmart) just 10 minutes away, the city of Pittsfield is 25 minutes away (has a mall), and Albany, with the nearest large airport, is an hour away. There are also weekend shuttles to Boston and NYC, both less than 3 hours away. But I promise that there are so many fun things to do on campus, especially on the weekends, that you’ll never get a chance to be bored.</p>

<p>@Zonlicht
No, I haven’t visited either. I’m sorry, I thought we were trying to help the OP, not argue like children. Pardon me for acting adult, something that’s evidently not your strong point… I’ll be 17 in a week… Says a lot for your maturity. Anyway, the previous post helps “qualify my statement.”</p>

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<p>Kudos for owning up to your slanderous statement, made without visiting or attending either school. Making such a baseless statement does not help the OP.</p>

<p>Regardless, I could see how someone your age could think like that; you will eventually realize that validation is purely internal.</p>

<p>@Zonlicht</p>

<p>You’re one to talk about validation…</p>

<p>I’m on this message a bit late, but I do hope you still read what I have to say. Obviously, I’m at Duke, but this question was the biggest dilemma I faced in choosing my college. Early in the application season (Late August), I was approached by the Williams Men’s Soccer Coach. He was interested in having me on the squad and offered to make Williams my home. Now, please bar any idea that my academics were in anyway suffering as I did get accepted to Duke without a hint at being recruited. Thus sprang the single biggest decision I ever had to make because as anyone knows, you choose a college not for the next four years, but the next forty. </p>

<p>I was a self-labelled “Econ/PoliSci” guy with a hankering for art history, so not quite up your alley. For the sake of others reading this and to be as complete as possible, I’ll elaborate on how those stack up. Both have excellent Economics programs, but Duke likely has better job placement (I don’t have any support for this, however). Though I didn’t know at the time, Duke is home to some of the foremost political scientists in the nation, second only to Stanford. In addition to having the newly elected President of the American Political Science Association at Duke, a politically-charged history (Sanford’s bid for presidency, charting the Hunt Commission–Duke professors MADE superdelegates) gives Duke the edge here. In the art field, despite having revitalized their art program and having the Nasher Museum of Art, the juggernaut that is Williams College Art cannot be denied. </p>

<p>In your particular case, for BME, I’d say Duke is a better fit. While Williams research is very student-oriented, the main reason behind that is the complete lack of other people wanting to do research (Townies aren’t about the jump in the lab, and Williams’ only next door neighbor is a golf course). Sure, between Duke and UNC Chapel Hill, there is a lot more competition, and it makes it harder to get a position. Ask yourself though, is that a bad thing? Finally, with the proximity of the schools and the resources of each, there are more opportunities to be had for research along a the more diverse selection. The edge goes to Duke.</p>

<p>There are many other ways to split hairs, but basic concerns are school history, school pride, sports, different extracurriculars, size of the school, campus, weather and social life. </p>

<p>Both have rich school history and a ton of school pride. Make no mistake, any Williams alum will be as proud of their college as any Dukie. </p>

<p>Duke wins on the sports front, even if Williams holds well in the NESCAC and DIII overall. </p>

<p>Opportunities for fun and novel extracurricular activities are pretty even. It’s place in nature makes Williams a fantastic spot for hiking and camping, and the college does take advantage of this. The only issue is that November-April all of that is covered in snow, while at Duke anything below 30 degrees is considered a hostile environment (so Williams is limited in that sense). However, the Williams 4-1-4 schedule allows for kids to come back to school and basically be at college but with less responsibility and accountability. Duke has that, but during the summer. Study Abroad–as I hope everyone in the world will one day realize–is all about red tape and leveraging. To say that any school has a better abroad program than another takes a LOT to prove since every top school just sends students anyway. I know, I know, there’s one sharp stick from Williams shouting from the hill top about their WC-only programs. Let’s play a round of poker: Wiliams bets the Williams-Mystic Program; Duke matches with the Duke Marine Biology Lab in Beaufort. Williams raises with Williams-Exeter Programme at Oxford; Duke calls with the Duke-LSE Programme. Both show their cards, and it turns out that Duke also has the entire Duke Engage program, Duke in NYC, and Duke in Florence/Paris/Munich/Madrid(?). That’s why you don’t try to walk the table with low pairs. </p>

<p>The size of the school also plays a large role in what school has more diverse extracurriculars. Williams is a tiny school–don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. The entire college is marginally larger than the first-year class at Duke, and just over a tenth of the size of Chapel Hill’s freshman class. Some people say this is a good thing. I disagree highly. The way I see it is that you can always limit your circle, but once you’ve hit the circle’s limit, then you can’t go further. NO ONE at Duke knows everyone at the school. No one knows their entire class, I’m pretty sure. Williams? Everyone knows everyone. 500 first-year students is the size of an average public school. 2000 first-year students? Probably a few high schools in California, but otherwise, it’s much bigger than what most people have experienced. Here’s my warning: once every person in your class knows you at Williams, then everyone in your class KNOWS you at Williams. They know your reputation and rumors about you, or they know that you have a great smile, rugged good looks, and like to call girls within 24 hours after the first date. Either way, it’s hard to change and even harder to blend in. Duke isn’t so drama-prone because there is a large number of students from around the world who have different interests. This means that there are a myriad of clubs you can join and opportunities to meet amazing new people everyday and still not know all the awesome people walking around you on campus. You can always make a big school small, but you can’t make a small school big. Advantage Duke.</p>

<p>Both campuses are gorgeous. The town around Williams is mundane but has an humble, understated appeal. Duke is more urban, which gives you more variety with which to spice up your night life. Nonetheless, with urban environments come a higher cost of living and, for the kid walking down the side alley at night, a mugging or two. With Chapel Hill just a bus ride away, I cannot say that you’ll run out of things to do after you close the books for the night at Duke.</p>

<p>For weather, the first thing that Duke guarantees you is a tan. Williams fulfills a promise that encompasses more winter jackets and exchanges form-fitting sundresses for the soft caress of flannel. I can’t see what there isn’t to love about North Carolina weather. I like to ski, you say? Well, I’m on the Ski/Snowboard team at Duke. We’ll talk about it when you get here.</p>

<p>Finally, social life. The equation of cold weather plus smart kids renders lots of partying and binge drinking. Don’t believe me? Look at Middlebury, Dartmouth, Cornell. All three schools boast that they have fantastic social lives and throw “crazy parties”. This isn’t to say that warm-weather schools don’t have fun. We do. But a very different kind of fun. You know those nights in high school where there was a blizzard/storm and your parents wouldn’t let you out of the house? You had no homework and nothing to do, so you settled down a watched a movie or something similarly benign. College is like that too, except your parents are your two buddies and you guys forgot the DVD player. That’s right, a bunch of hormone-infused young adults are in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do and nowhere to go, so they drink. That’s fun, but essentially, it’s drinking to be drunk. Duke never has those issues because there is always something to do, even if it’s at worst golfing or going to a heated ACC rival match in Cameron. Sure we party, and we party hard, but we drink to feel relaxed and to enjoy ourselves, not because there’s nothing else to do.</p>

<p>After you rationalize it all as I have above, with nothing else added in, Duke does come out on top. But I will make no pretense that I have broken down each school with equal knowledge of both and have provided you with a completely objective shake-down. I just tried my best to tell you how I made my decision.</p>

<p>I’ve written a lot here. I do hope you read it all, but I know most won’t which is why I broke this up all so nicely. Either way, both are great schools and you will make the school of choice your home, and you will love it immensely. </p>

<p>}—The Blue Devil—{</p>

<p>As for the money issue, which after reading the posts above me has been discussed at length, I would like to remind you that WC has the lowest average student debt after college. The last time I checked (18 months ago) it was $7,500 a student. </p>

<p>As for the food, which you seem concerned about, Williams has FANTASTIC restaurants. I can’t stress enough how much delicious-ness surrounds that campus. Compared to Duke, however, it falls short. Durham is consistently ranked as one of the top food cities in the America, let alone the South. If you doubt the Devil, a simple Google search will show you that Durham often gets attention from the NY Times and other nationally-acclaimed newspapers for its myriad of eateries. Again, being so close to Chapel Hill also opens the doors to more down-south comfort food. Shrimp and Grits at Spanky’s is not to be ignored. Then walk across the straight to Top of the Hill, get yourself a glass of their signature Blueberry Wheat beer and another Shrimp & Grits. That’s what clouds in heaven taste like.</p>

<p>-TBD</p>

<p>Obviously the original poster has decided on a school already, but I want to add this for future CCers who come across this thread:</p>

<p>Medical school admission is very different from graduate school admission. If you are interested in med school, it’s volunteering at clinics, doing internships at hospitals, etc, that help your case–not laboratory research. Research, however pertinent to your field, is not the same as clinical experience, and as far as med school selection goes, they want to see that you have demonstrated passion for medicine–lab research they could really care less about. On the other hand, if you are considering graduate school, which is not a professional school (unlike Medicine, Business, or Law school), lab research is certainly very appropriate. </p>

<p>Back to the Duke v. Williams topic: I don’t know much about Duke, but I am planning to enroll at Williams this fall, and I will affirm that any student who wants to do research, may. The resources are really unparalleled, and since the focus is on undergraduates, you will naturally have more opportunities to do hands-on work in your desired field. On the other hand, because Williams is not a university, fields like engineering and applied science (i.e. materials, chemical, etc) are a bit less fleshed out than research-oriented schools like a UC or, in this instance, Duke. The fruit depends on the picker!</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>