<p>Now, if McKinsey recruits talents from Berkeley, coupled with the fact the 2 other big names do as well and even consider Cal as a core school for FO IB and MC jobs, then Berkeley isn’t what Duke peeps think it is after all. And, again, more than 550 companies go to Berkeley to recruit graduates. That has been published by Businessweek.</p>
<p>I’ll concede that overall, Berkeley is more prestigious than Duke in the minds of many people. But I’d also like to point that Berkeley’s reputation is due to its longer history as an elite school. For a school such as Duke who maybe 30 years wouldn’t even be on the map to be so close behind Berkeley in 2 of the 3 surveys, that still says something about Duke. </p>
<p>As for the post-graduate students survey, I’d like to point out that the chances of graduate students basing their choices on their most recent evaluation of universities is very high given the factors such as the questionable nature of human memory, maturation, and history both of the latter being threats to internal validity. Thus, they would be more likely to rate universities based on when they applied to graduate programs. I would argue that when evaluating universities during the graduate school application process, the individual departments and even advisors/labs are much more important factors than the overall quality fo the university. Therefore, using that survey as a measure of the prestige of a university (especially pertaining to it’s undergrad programs) raises significant doubts about its internal validity.</p>
<p>Edit: just saw RML’s rebuttal of my point so here’s a counter-rebuttal (?)</p>
<p>I didn’t actually state that no one recruits at Berkeley or that fewer companies recruit at Berkeley. Your original assertion was that more companies recruit at Berkeley than at Duke. I’m saying the Vault doesn’t prove that at all. In fact the total number of times each university is mentioned in that article is equal in terms of the number of companies actively recruiting at each campus. Thus that doesn’t justify the more companies assertion. As for McKinsey recruiting Berkeley, saying that they recruit there but don’t consider Berkeley a core campus doesn’t prove anything. McKinsey recruits at Duke too (as BlueDog pointed out) but doesn’t consider it a core campus either (according to the article). So the emphasis that McKinsey recruit at Berkeley doesn’t strengthen the argument that Berkeley is better in terms of recruitment…</p>
<p>First of all, even when you compare how much do Berkeley grads make after 10-20 yrs from now to Duke’s, Berkeley still wins. </p>
<p>Second, a survey is a survey. it’s not perfect, but it’s what we currently have. We cannot speculate Duke grads make more money than Berkeley grads do when the survey says otherwise. Unless you have something to counter that, show it now. </p>
<p>third, it’s not really a huge difference, but considering the volume of Berkeley alumni which is way, way bigger than Duke’s, the outcome should have weigh against Berkeley. Why? Because it’s very hard to maintain high level of earning of the alumni when you have so many people involved. Plus the fact the Berkeley is a multi-university, which means, it offers programs that are not even career oriented. Duke is, by and large, unlike Berkeley. It’s a pretty career oriented school. In fact, much of its grads head East to WS, NYC as their orientation is geared towards that area/career.</p>
<p>Even Fuqua isn’t as prestigious as Berkeley-Haas. Berkeley just pawns Duke in all professional programs. Berkeley law is superior to Duke law. Berkeley business is superior to Duke business. Berkeley engineering is superior to Duke engineering. And Berkeley’s de facto med school – UCSF-- is better then Duke’s. See? Berkeley is superior to Duke in many areas. BUT, I am not denying the fact that for undergrad education, Duke better than Berkeley in terms of college desirability. I believe you would be more cuddled at Duke than you would at Berkeley. And, for a lot of students, that’s far more important than academic prestige. I was just responding to someone who made a claim (or was about to say) that Duke is more prestigious to Berkeley and is superior to Berkeley in terms of academic standards. **I’d say they’re on the same league. Only HYPSM are more prestigious than both of them. **</p>
<p>Based on starting income? Time machine? crystal ball?</p>
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<p>A survey is a survey, I agree but you can also twist the data or fallaciously generalize the survey. In that case, while the survey might be valid, the generalizations would not be. You can’t point to the validity of a survey to bolster the validity of your interpretations. I’m saying that the relationship asserted might be spurious because of another intervening mechanism which has not been controlled for. </p>
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<p>The number of Berkeley graduates who graduated 10-20 years ago is merely the target population of the survey. You have no information on the actual sampling frame from which samples are taken, the sampling technique used, or the response rate for the survey. Any one of those factors could introduce selection which could adversely impact your argument. In short, you have to look at the actual survey data to conclude that the number of Berkeley grads and the income level points to Berkeley grads being more competitive overall…</p>
<p>Sorry; that should have been 5 - 20yrs ago. I stand corrected.</p>
<p>Anyway, I’m not here on Duke’s thread trying to slap your faces on how great Berkeley is. If I came across to anyone of you like that, I apologize. </p>
<p>I’m only here to erase the notion --as it is a myth obviously-- that Duke is superior to Berkeley for undergrad. It isn’t. the truth is, they’re both peer schools and it’s very hard to justify that one is substantially superior than the other. Both camps can make a solid claim that they better. But the truth is, they’re on the same league, which is a league just below HYPSM’s.</p>
<p>So, I suggest that in choosing between these two great schools, factors such as desirability, weather, environment, student culture, housing, strength of the chosen program and cost should be the ultimate deciding factors rather than prestige – as a whole-- because, again, you’d be splitting hairs when you do that.</p>
<p>I think RML summed up it well. The bottom in line in choosing which school you want to go to depends most importantly on YOU, the student. Do you want to cheer for a really strong team when March Madness comes along? Do you want to be very politically active and be exposed to very different viewpoints? Are you going to take the initiative to go to the office hours and develop relationships with professors? What are you ultimate goals after graduation? How much are you capable of paying or willing to take loans? Those are questions only you can answer as an applicant, and it’s very different for every person. Both are great schools, and it all comes down to what you truly want for your four years of college.</p>
<p>I got into both Duke and Berkeley. I chose Duke over Berkeley, with similar financial situations. That’s just me though. Most of my friends and I believe that Duke has more prestige than Berkeley in terms of undergraduate academics, at least here in the Northwest. (If that matters at all; both are excellent schools)</p>
<p>^same, and i’m from the west (literally 30 minutes from berkeley). but okay calm down about the whole prestige thing - go to the school that fits you.</p>
<p>Duke is no HYPS and some think Berkeley is more prestigious. There’s no way Duke’s engineering is more prestigious, undergrad or not, so even the term “undergraduate academics” (post #28) needs a qualifier. Regardless, IMO, it’s not worth 20k or 30k+/yr more unless the family is pretty rich.</p>
<p>I would beg to disagree. Duke’s BME is one of the most well-known programs of its kind in the country. I also think it’s pretty hypocritical to implicitly generalize that all Duke families are “pretty rich” while trying to debunk the misconception that Berkeley is less prestigious.</p>
<p>^It’s obvious I was talking about the overall engineering school. Sorry that I forgot about its BME but it doesn’t carry the whole engineering school and no way offsets the weaknesses (or at least perceived) in <em>all</em> other engineering departments (none of the others are ranked in the top-20).</p>
<p>I implied nothing about Duke families. I am just saying that, IMO, it makes no sense to pay 30k/yr extra to go to Duke when Berkeley is (arguably) pretty much in the same league.</p>
<p>By the way, I’d be reluctant to sell my own school and enourage people to get into debt or pay much higher premiums when I know nothing about the financial situation of others.</p>
<p>I did not imply that BME offsets the weaknesses of any other departments but when you do talk to people, even though Duke engineering is not perceived to be as prestigious people will still recognize that certain aspects such as BME are top-notch. So that overall perception won’t hamper you. Of course, if you don’t choose BME, then feel free to choose another higher ranked program. Just because some departments might be weaker, you still can’t say that in all cases, one should choose Berkeley over Duke. </p>
<p>Regarding paying for Duke. I’ll just mention that the financial aid at Duke is very good and competitive with many Ivy League schools. Almost half of the students at Duke receives some form of financial aid. While not everyone has that aid, I’ll just point out that a large portion do not pay the full $50K price tag. </p>
<p>IMO, being in the same league academically and costing less should not be the only factors in deciding between colleges. Beyond academics, Duke and Berkeley are very different. To say that across the board, it always makes no sense to choose one over the other because of those two factors is oversimplifying many things. </p>
<p>Finally, I might know nothing about the financial situation of others but neither do you. I’ll sell my school because I loved it and I feel that many people will benefit from an education there. As for whether they’ll “get into debt or pay much higher premiums,” that’s not for me to decide. No one is asking me to make that decision for them and I would hope that everyone will have thoroughly considered the costs and benefits of a Duke education before making their choices. To say that I shouldn’t be promoting my school because some people might not be able to afford it is like saying Lexus shouldn’t sell their cars because people will be in debt if they buy them…</p>
<p>Edit: also, the only people who pay $30K less than Duke are mostly the CA residents. While many who consider Berkeley are CA residents, many who consider Duke are from all over the country. Scholarships aside, for out of state residents, the annual estimated total cost of attendance is $45K - 50K (<a href=“http://students.berkeley.edu/finaid/home/cost.htm[/url]”>http://students.berkeley.edu/finaid/home/cost.htm</a>) so why would I not promote Duke to the many who do not have in-state status?</p>
<p>are you already at duke? if so, how are you liking it? </p>
<p>i think in most of regions around the united states (south, northeast, up here in northwest) duke has more undergraduate prestige than berkeley. not gonna lie, that was one of the many reasons i chose duke. but maybe not in california, who knows.</p>
<p>naw, i’m not at duke yet. 2013 ftw but yeah i’m from california and duke has more undergraduate prestige (except to 748273842 year old people here who’ve heard of nothing BUT berkeley, harvard, and stanford…). everyone always brings up that berkeley’s engineering is amazing, and yes, it is. but other than that, bleh.</p>
<p>I bet a lot more people turn down HYP for Berkeley than Duke. Why? Because if they live in state, why wouldn’t they go to Berkeley (not to mention the great location)? The prestige is so similar, whichever you think is better, that your job or graduate school placement will depend much more on what you have done at college and what your grades and graduate exam scores are than whether you went to Duke or Berkeley. </p>
<p>I love Duke - I applied ED, so obviously I love it. But I do not live in California and if I did and had gotten into Berkeley, I would have gone there. My family isn’t poor by any means, but next year two of us will be in college at an after tax cost of well over 100,000. </p>
<p>Now, if there is no financial reason to choose either school then just choose the one that would be the best fit for you. Enjoy college. You’ve worked hard for it.</p>
<p>Uh Berkeley barely cracks the top 25 of USNews while Duke is top 10. They are not even in the same league when it comes to the quality of the undergraduate education.</p>
<p>Here are schools that are more prestigious and well-known than Berkeley DOMESTICALLY:
HYPSM
Caltech
Duke
Columbia
Northwestern
JHU
Brown
Wash U
Cornell
Penn</p>
<p>Just so you know I’m a Duke student and do not regret, even for a second, coming to Duke. But I feel I must make this point in the spirit of fairness.</p>
<p>As much as I dislike saying this, the term “undergraduate education” is very broad when one considers quality. While Duke might be highly ranked in some areas, it can be somewhat lacking in others. The same can be said for Berkeley. It say that the two institutions are not in the same league based on the quality of undergrad education would be comparing apples to oranges.</p>
<p>Edit: let’s stop talking about prestige and focus on issues which have more meat. IMO, prestige is so intangible and undefinable a concept that disagreements are inevitable and rather pointless both for the purpose of helping pfroshes to get to know Duke and to make meaningful comparison between school.</p>
<p>Your idea and belief that Duke is more prestigious than Berkeley is only a hallucination. And, certainly, Duke isn’t more prestigious than Columbia and those schools you ranked lower than Duke’s. </p>
<p>If you want to push this “prestige” issue between Berkeley and Duke, well, I’ll be honest with you. Berkeley is MORE prestigious than Duke. It’s name is even in the periodic table.</p>
<p>Generally, from what Californians tell me, Berkeley tends to be much more respected for its graduate programs than undergraduate. In fact, their reasons for coming to Duke were that the extra prestige of Duke undergraduate was worth the money. </p>
<p>I won’t deny that Berkeley’s graduate programs pretty much sweep Duke with the exception of medicine, though, since Berkeley doesn’t have a school of medicine.</p>
but yeah i’m from california and duke has more undergraduate prestige (except to 748273842 year old people here who’ve heard of nothing BUT berkeley, harvard, and stanford…). everyone always brings up that berkeley’s engineering is amazing, and yes, it is. but other than that, bleh.</p>