Early Decision Dilemma

Parents Forum
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<p>MomEl -- my son was exactly like yours in high school - the only difference is that my son was pro-active and negotiated with each of his teachers to modify grading for him. His goal was to get teachers to agree to waive homework and grade him on exams only. Here is the outcome of the most extreme example: As a high school senior, he took calculus first period (8 am). He convinced his calculus teacher to agree to the exam-only grading scheme. He habitually slept in, skipping class or arriving very late - his school had block scheduling, so classes met only 2 or 3 days per week and were longer in duration than the typical high school class. Since he wasn't required to do homework, he didn't bother reading the text book either. He simply showed up for exams and took the tests. He had an A -- probably with the highest grade in the class -- he told me he simply figured out the problems when he was confronted with them on the exam. (With a brain like that you'd expect the kid to study math in college, but he is bored with math because he finds it too easy, and the only math class that he has taken in college is a statistics class he took online via a community college to fulfill a general ed requirement after he transferred).</p>

<p>So the only real difference between my son and yours is that, in high school, my son covered his rear by making sure that he could get away with his avoidance tactics. </p>

<p>So I know the problem well. Knowing that, I have two comments on what you have said, which I will address in a separate post.</p>

22

<p>I teach some brilliant students in community college, and no one could get through my classes without doing work, not my kids at Barnard and Williams.</p>

<p>You could easily make up the $15,000 with two years at community college where he could learn how to work, and then he could transfer to the four year of his dreams when he knew what he wanted.</p>

<p>A 2.9 would scare me. I wouldn't send one of my kids with that GPA to a rigorous school. If he earns poor grades and gets scared off it might be difficult to get him back on track. Some kids only take one bite of the apple.</p>

<p>I would "match" the school to his performance and not worry too much abut his excellent test scores. They will compensate for his hs performance a bit and probably help him get into a school that is a good match for now. When he succeeds he can upgrade to a school that is more in line with the achievements you think he is capable of. Kids thrive when they move from success to success.</p>

23

<p>


This is your perception of what your son needs. But it is too late for you as a parent to force your son to become a rule-follower if he has not become one a this point. I'm not sure that is what your son "needs" in any case.</p>

<p>When my son was in 2nd grade, his teacher expressed frustration because whenever the instructions on a worksheet said to circle the right answer, my son would underline the answer; but if the worksheet instructions were to underline the answer, my son would draw circles. The teacher told me that my son "needs to learn to follow the rules" because if he didn't, he wouldn't survive when he grew up and had a job. </p>

<p>Here is what I said: "Maybe someday my son will be the one making the rules".</p>

<p>When my son dropped out of college after 2 years, he lay around on the living room couch for 2 months doing nothing while I nagged and threatened. Then one day he went into town and applied for a low-skill, high-turnover job doing issue-oriented political canvassing & fundraising. After one week on the job he was promoted to "field manager". Within a few months after that, he was "assistant director" of the office, in charge of a staff of up to 40 people. He loved the work and would happily spend 16 hours a day 5 days a week and on weekends (having been promoted to management level and given a salary, the hours expanded along with his responsibility). </p>

<p>So what I saw was that my son really blossomed and did well -- but he did need to be the one who was making the rules, or at least feel like an active participant in making those rules. Obviously, he had a lot of external rule and requirements to meet -- for one thing, in his job, he was responsible for taking care of payroll every week and he certainly understood the importance of getting that done on time. But he only developed the self-discipline to do all of that when he could see everything from the perspective of being a leader -- not a subordinate. </p>

<p>My guess is that as long as there are adults in his life telling your son what he "needs" -- things will remain the same. It is only when he becomes actively engaged in setting his own goals and priorities that he will develop the "discipline" that you would like to see. Until that time, he remains in a world where all he sees is a lot of adults demanding that he perform meaningless tasks over and over again. </p>

<p>I'll tell you what I learned (the hard way) and what I think about college selection in my next post.</p>

24

<p>
[quote]
my son was exactly like yours in high school - the only difference is that my son was pro-active and negotiated with each of his teachers to modify grading for him. His goal was to get teachers to agree to waive homework and grade him on exams only.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I did the same thing in college. I forgot to mention it.</p>

25

<p>Calmom, I am waiting for that next post. My oldest seems to be a twin for your son. He is finally piecing his life together. My current senior in high school is more the underachiever who just cannot work up enough interest and enthusiasm for any subject to get more than a "B" in the course. He would not even get that except he does learn pretty quickly, and has had an excellent education base in a rigorous school. Stats very similar to the OP's son. Wants to go to a "good" college as he is finally catching on that his classmates seem to be heading that way. Has talent in maths and sciences though not that bad in any subject.</p>

<p>I am hoping that a good college match would help with the next step of engaging his interest and sharpening that motivation. He seems so lost right now. I don't think a gap year is a good next step because he has no direction or plan of anything to do in that time. He has taken a course at the local college, did well in it, but for him to have some sort of social life, a residential college is the way to go. We have only been here a few years so he does not know many people outside of school. He's a "good" kid. No disciplinary problems. </p>

<p>I often wonder what I could have done with my oldest in terms of the college years as he had to take the rough path. I hope to avoid that with this fellow.</p>

26

<p>There is really a lot going on with my son that I haven't discussed.
I was a rule follower. I did all of the "shoulds" . So did his father.
I'm successful, but I don't love my job and my son knows that. His father also did all of the "shoulds...until he had a midlife crisis 4 years ago and left. He not only left the marriage, he also left the law firm that he had been working at for 19 years to form his own law partnership with the sweet young thing who had been working for him. Hence the current financial difficulties.
So as for me forcing my son to follow the rules? Nope.<br>
He sees my husband and me as being successful...but unhappy and you know what...maybe he's right
I wish he'd use his brains and talents to do something fabulous...but more importantly, I want him to be happy. the thing is, that I don' t believe he will be happy if he doesn't take advantage of his talents. There are so many things that he could do if he applied himself and took advantage of what is offered at many of these schools. If he applied himself, he could have gone someplace really competetive...but Maybe the traditional route isn't the best route for him. I just don't want him to be short sighted and cut off his nose to spite his face...It's hard to watch...like I said, I was and I guess I still am ..a traditional rule fllower
But it's his life, and his choice...and I guess that in the end, I believe he will come out ok. and you are right...it's the people who challenge the rules and make the rules that often are the people who change the world</p>

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<p>Cptofthehouse wrote:
[quote]
in my experience this type of kid is going to have a hard time in a large school that is not right on top of him. More personal attention is definitely needed.

[/quote]
When I sent my son off to college at age 18, I thought the same thing; so did he. My son turned down Berkeley in favor of a small LAC with very small class sizespolicies that guaranteed consistent interaction between students and faculty, and an extremely close level of faculty advising. No school could possibly have offered to give more "personal attention" than the one my son chose. </p>

<p>Net result: Grades of "incomplete", D's, C- - mixed in with A's. (no B's as far as I recall, although he ended up with a 3.0 GPA). At the end of 2 years he had not earned enough credit to move from sophomore to junior standing.</p>

<p>What about that "personal attention?" Well, I learned that college professors are not parents, and they aren't going to stay "right on top" of a student, even if they will call or email to find out why a kid didn't show up to class. The reality is that they see their students as adults, and while they may remind and encourage, they won't "force". </p>

<p>Well, quite frankly we didn't have the money to pay for an extra semester to make up for the stuff my son didn't do. </p>

<p>Looking back, one advantage of a public school would have been more flexibility in terms of time and money -- an extra semester to make up for a failed class is within the realm of affordability; plus public schools are more likely to offer summer sessions or allow credit to be transferred from local community colleges if the student opts to make up the work in another context. They are also a little more flexible about students coming and going -- it is not necessarily a bad thing when a kid graduates in 6 years rather than 4, and does not necessarily mean that the student has been in school continuously. (My son's college trajectory means he will graduate in 7 years, at age 25 -- but with only 7 semesters of college attendance+ 1 summer taking online community college courses, plus 1 semester with an off-campus internship for which he will be given academic credit)</p>

<p>So I think I am in the same camp with Northstarmom -- sometimes the best thing you can do for a kid is back off and let them screw up. Maybe a kid with a 2.9 GPA shouldn't be going to college next year, or at least should be looking at other options. I'm pretty sure that parental funds for college should be very limited and tied to very specific conditions. My son paid his own way for the last 2 years of college because I set very clear conditions for future financial support from me and stuck to them -- my son opted for a different path. A few years later his grandfather offered him some money and he refused it -- and he remarked to me that he felt better about himself knowing that he was earning his own way -- so it could very well be that the reason my son didn't meet my conditions is that he really didn't want my money. I think in hindsight I placed a tremendous burden of guilt on my son's shoulders by investing too many $$ at a college where he was not performing well enough to justify the expense -- he probably felt very relieved not to have to worry about his mom's money as part of his overall life equation. </p>

<p>I do know that the life lessons about rules and discipline were learned much better by my son in the workplace, rather than in school. </p>

<p>And like Northstarmom, I'm a great fan of Americorps. My son had the good fortune of qualifying for a half-time position with Americorps in the community where he attended the state college he transferred to at age 23 -- they were very flexible about scheduling so it was easy for him to work and attend school simultaneously, and he absolutely loved his job and found it to be extremely rewarding with a tremendous amount of responsibility.</p>

<p>So it may be that the best thing you can do for your son is also give him room to consider some options other than college -- with a gap year with Americorps being one that definitely should be considered. </p>

<p>The bottom line: your son won't do well in school unless and until he finds the source of his motivation. If he is not excited by any of the college choices he is now looking at -- then it may be that time away from school is the best way to find that.</p>

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<p>Momel - re your post #26 -- I'm not a rule-follower and neither is my son's father. (we are also divorced). My son's model is two parents who are involved in fulfilling careers, doing for a living the sort of things we would gladly do without pay if we didn't need to feed ourselves -- both self-employed with the freedom to pick and choose our assignments. And I'm happy with what I'm doing -- really happy and obviously so. At the same time this model is one that is perpetually short of money - the downside of the freedom is that its harder to earn a lot of dough doing things your own way. I think my son figured out early on that frugal + happy is the way to go -- and he certainly learned that one could "survive" while happily disregarding all the rules, even if you can't get rich that way.</p>

<p>A word of warning in a different context: Almost all of the private colleges you might consider will want to see your gallivanting ex-husband's income and add it into the mix when calculating need-based financial aid. If your ex's likelihood of contributing to your son's college is consistent with the degree of his sense of his responsibility towards family demonstrated 4 years ago, I wouldn't try to bank the money. With his own law practice your ex is likely to have a fluctuating but generally high income with a high overhead - but colleges may ask for a business statement from him and add back many of his self-employed writeoff's into the mix. Plus, because your ex's income will fluctuate from year to year, need based aid is going to be roller coaster ride each year -- you might get a good award in year #1, then in year #2 your ex gets a big settlement and his income skyrockets and you lose all financial aid -- but the ex might be vacationing in Tahiti and not at all willing to help meet the gap. (I've got an ex who is a self-employed lawyer so I speak from experience). </p>

<p>Between the issues you will face with need-based aid and the fact that your son would need to sustain a strong GPA to hang on to any merit aid he can get -- that is one more argument in favor of a public school. I checked online and found that in addition to UMass, the state of Massachusetts does have some 4-year public state colleges. These might be the functional equivalent of the CSU my son now attends, and some may have the smaller enrollment and class size and greater degree of personal attention you would like your son to have. I realize that if your son thinks UMass is 2nd rate, then he probably thinks a state college is 3rd rate or worse - and that is certainly what we thought when my son was first applying to colleges. But as I've noted, my son has done quite well at his CSU, which has about 5,000 students, small classes, and is located in a somewhat remote, small college town. </p>

<p>My son had better options than yours at the outset because he had a high GPA to go along with his test scores -- but in he ended up at the place where his real-life track record of performance took him, which is where your son will probably start. So given the financial issues involved, it might be worthwhile to take a look at alternative state-funded options.</p>

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<p>I've got 2 other kids, one who just graduated Fordham and one who is a Jr. at Tufts., so I am familiar with the financial aid problem. Tufts requires a non-custodial parent statement. My H didn't bother to fill one out. (nor did he bother to file his tax returns for 3 years...but that's a hole other kettle of fish...) Tufts knew this wasn't my fault and they continued to process the stafford loans.<br>
With my oldest, we didn't need aid. With my daughter, we only got Stafford loans and some small Tufts loans.
My H is not a PI attorney, He's a divorce lawyer, so his income is more predictable. He makes decent money (and so do I,) but nor enough to support 2 households, pay 2 tuitions and subsidize the living expenses of my oldest son. My H is not ducking out on the tuitions, He just can't come up with enough for everything....and the debt keeps mounting
Our debts are astronomical, but debts aren't really discussed on the FAFSA or the profile.
So my son may be faced with UMass or nothing...unless we get aid somewhere'....And there is NO way, that my son would consider one of the State colleges. He will definitely be accepted to UMass and he understands that he may have to go there...A lot of his problem is that he feels that his brother and sister didn't have to go there, so why should he? there's a lot of anger. (He blocks out of his mind the fact that his brother and sister were national Honor society students with good grades.</p>

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<p>I;ve watched our oldest son follow a similar path to your son's, Calmom. He did not go to a small LAC, but a rigorous college, more like RPI. He did well for two years, and then blew up when a combination of lack of direction, partying activities, poor study skills, mood disorders all came to a head. He never made any relationships with profs or interest in any field of study. In this school, both are pretty important when it come to the upper level courses. </p>

<p>I have seen kids like these boys come to an awakening at college. It usually happens at the smaller LACs and when there is a good fit. I had so hoped this would happen with my son, but it did not. I think that with some kids, the college environment can be a tipping point. There are kids who would have failed anywhere, kids who would have blossomed anywhere, but there are also kids who just might make it over a "growing up" hurdle if the right things happen at the right time. I just want to try to increase those odds. You see, I have seen kids who fit your son's description, Calmom, and my son's as well who have undergone enough of a transformation at a college that they were able to move into adulthood. I have also seen kids at larger schools have issues that were then resolved in smaller, more personal schools --many times I have seen this.</p>

<p>My neighbor's son is in his last year at a local Catholic college, happy, doing well after burning and crashing from a larger, less personal school. A combination of depression, not fitting into the school, not making friends fast enough who cared enough to notice his misery, large classes with the prof lecturing and then making his exit, grad students who could not care less, poor counseling and not knowing anyone well at the school caused the disaster. He adamently refused to return to the college even though he had not flunked out. Lost a scholarship, and had to work part time to be able to afford where he is now at school, but he loves it there. This made a big difference for him. </p>

<p>I ran into similar problems with my kids in high school. A large impersonal public school just did not cut it for my kids, or for me. A big difference when we changed schools. I did wait in trepidation for the problems we had to resurface, but they did not. Yes, I have seen kids who carried their problems with them so a change in schools or scene would not make a bit of difference, but that was not the case here. </p>

<p>I am hoping that for my third child that he can go to a school that is optimal for success for him. In the case of his brother, there was the problem that he wanted to go to a school that was not a good match for him--we saw it but he did not. At this point, I have the problem of not being able to afford what his teachers, counselor, and I think would be the best fit for him. </p>

<p>Just as an aside, Calmom, how were you able to work out your ex husband's income for PROFILE purposes? My closest friend's children had private school options closed to them when her ex simply refused to complete any financial aid forms at all. Her income, assets even with child support was inadequate to pay much, but none of the PROFILE schools would give her any aid without her ex's info. She even went to court over this and lost. Her kids ended up at state schools, and she and they now owe quite a bit in loans to repay even though they worked jobs through college. I've known others in the same situation. Or their ex-spouses refuse to cough up what college indicate they should contribute.</p>

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<p>Cptofthehouse -- unfortunately when finances stand in the way, the mere hope that a kid will shape up and do better if the college is a good fit still makes for a risky investment. With my son, I simply was unwilling to pay more $$ to the first LAC after I learned of my kid's academic problems. (He decided to "take a year off" before fessing up to the whole mess -- the LAC would have taken him back -- but after I saw the transcript I was no longer willing to pay the premium. If he was going to screw up, I preferred it be at public-school rates). </p>

<p>As to my financial situation, I'm paying 100% of the parental EFC, including whatever the college thinks is my ex's share. I've taken PLUS loans to make up part of the difference. I did get out of the divorce with ownership of the house (I refinanced it to buy him out) -- but I know that I have that equity sitting there as an ultimate financial cushion, and I simply made a 15-year plan for myself that includes paying off loans for my kids' college post graduation. It is a HUGE problem to get cooperation from my ex -- but so far he has submitted necessary paperwork, even though he is habitually late with it. I've gotten a little more sophisticated and now give him a "special circumstances" letter to sign and submit explaining all HIS financial woes -- (large business debt, high cost of medical insurance due to health issues, particular expenses incurred relative to some of his cases) --so while the college refuses to discuss his finances with me, they have confirmed that information provided that way has reduced some of what they expect. Plus we cut some of the COA -- for example, my d. has suite style housing with a kitchen and we dropped the meal plan, so she cooks for herself now (and pays for her own food -- though I've been known to pack a box full of pasta and ramen and ship it out from time to time) -- so that's a big help for me.</p>

<p>My son could not possibly be doing better, by the way. He's in DC right now with a congressional internship, and a proven track record in terms of employment history. So no worries there.</p>

32

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<br>

<p>Stafford loans are federal aid. If you completed the FAFSA (which does not ask for non-custodial parent info), you would be offered one of these...subsidized if you had financial need, and unsubsidized if you had no need. </p>

<p>I'm concerned that if your son thinks the state schools are inferior that he will have the same feeling about any private school that would offere significant merit aid to a student with his GPA. The reality is that those schools are not in the top 100.</p>

33

<p>"unfortunately when finances stand in the way, the mere hope that a kid will shape up and do better if the college is a good fit still makes for a risky investment."</p>

<p>Very, very true. Older S went on virtually full merit aid to a college that was a great fit and that he loved. He still flunked out, though he had a marvelous time (mainly making friends, working on the school newspaper and watching the school's sports teams) while he was there. It's telling that apparently he had exactly the kind of college experience that his immature mind thought was best.</p>

<p>If I had it to do over again: S would have been responsible for organizing his college and merit aid apps and searching for the right college (I had done those things for S). S also would have taken a gap year working while living at home after his senior year grades deep sixed.</p>

<p>Taking a gap year and having to be responsible for organizing his college aps is a reason why I think that younger S is taking his college experience seriously.</p>

<p>It's important to realize that many smart students -- especially boys -- may be bright enough for college, but not mature enough for college right after h.s. They may do far better by taking a productive gap year than by going off to college, no matter how well matched the college is to them and no matter how much aid they get.</p>

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<p>I know that it is a risky proposition, but what I do want to bring up is that it CAN work out at times when a kid who is just not working out in highschool, comes to an awakening in college. I know too many young men where this has happened much to the relief of the parents. One of the young men we knew looked like a total waste of investment for college. Total turn around his freshman year. Loved college, put in the effort, did not do that well freshman year but the effort was made. (Too many years of bad habits). After that he was golden. Had he stayed at home there were a number of risks as he was hanging with some kids who ended up getting into a lot of trouble the following year--all went to local schools whereas the said young man went farther away. Some kids who do take that year off, spiral downward instead of stepping up, and stepping does happen. </p>

<p>Many of the "colleges that change lives" schools have success stories with some of these kids. A kid who was just mismatched in a highschool, did not get along with kids, teachers, rules there just might blossom in college. </p>

<p>The trick is identifying what the situation is with your child. Even in retrospect I am not sure what the right moves would have been for my older kids, and th experience has not helped me in a sure resolution for my child currently looking at colleges.</p>

35

<p>That's true, but the point is that there are less costly alternatives -- and also that the perfect college for a given kid might not be a prestige school or the most expensive. There are many public state colleges and community colleges that offer innovative programs and services.</p>

36

<p>We have been a big user of our local state school and community college. I well know the strengths and weakness, advantages and disadvantages of these schools as my kids do. For many kids who need that little bump up, a small college that is NOT a suitcase, where they can truly become part of a new community as they learn and grow up, where they feel comfortable and that they belong, and yet where they can work on challenges is ideal. No, it does not have to be a prestige school. At this point none of my son's choices are reaches, none are highly selective, and there are scholarship possibilities at those that are expensive. But it's going to be tough to get around the cost. The state schools we have on our lists are the best we have found in terms of size (small), dorms and activities (lots), but it is pretty clear that there is a large commuter population at them, and even those who board tend to come from close by, and the campus tends to clear out on weekends. A big difference from the private LACs. Yet getting enough merit money to come even close to closing the gap in price is doubtful. I can see how that $15K is tempting. Even being in the top 10-15% test score wise, it is doubtful we'll see more that $5k in merit money. And we are not going to qualify for financial aid. We are applying, but it's pretty clear that loans will about the only thing we'll get. Even kids we know who qualify for some financial aid do not generally get that much in grants from the schools. Most of the colleges that guarantee 100% of need to be met AND who have the funds to give generously in scholarship rather than self help are highly selective.
My son's teachers and counselors who have known him well these 3+ years in the small school where he goes, unanimously agree he would do best in a good LAC, which is where many kids from there go. They tell me that they see many boys like him, and MOST from their school do complete college and do well. The school they recommend are high cost LACs. I have a list of where all the grads of that high school are currently in college and access to where everyone in the last 10 years applied and the results of the apps. They know where most of their students went to school, how it went and what they are doing now for that period, proabably more. </p>

<p>There are less costly alternatives, we are pursuing them, have used them, but when I go thorugh the lists and all of the choices, money is an issue for the most ideal venues in this case at this time. Now, I have a son at an inexpensive state school, and for him it has worked. He picked it, because it was his best alternative, though not his ideal choice (he did not get into those). In his case, we did not heavily weight the financials as things were not as they are now with us.</p>

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<p>cptofthehouse -- I don't have an answer for you -- each situation is different. I just know that my son needed some things he didn't have at age 18: maturity, and a strong sense of who he was and why he was in school. The fact that he started college as a truly "undecided" major might have been part of the problem -- not that there is anything wrong with it, but the bottom line is that he was in college for no reason other than the fact that it was the expected thing for him to do after high school. </p>

<p>The two elements: maturity + self-direction -- came with his experiences working and supporting himself. I saw absolutely no change in emotional maturity in the first 2 years of college, but a radical change in the first 2 months on the job. </p>

<p>I don't know what your situation with your son is, but my advice is to consider how the college he chooses will work out if things don't go as you hope. My son's first college limited the total number of courses students could take in a semester and charged more (a lot more) for additional courses -- so practically speaking, there was no way to make up for a failed course. His advisor recommended that he take a year off and take some classes from the state U -- obviously with the idea that those transferable units could fill the gap. The LAC also would not award credit for AP classes at the outset -- I think the students could apply for that credit after their first year and then that was in the discretion of the department, no clear policy -- so my son did not have a safety net of AP credit there either. </p>

<p>In contrast, my daughter entered college with almost a semester's worth of AP credit, and I don't think that there is an extra charge for additional units -- so if a student had to make up a course by retaking it, I don't think that it would cost more. Now my daughter doesn't have those issues -- with her that cost-of-extra-units factor is more important simply because she is the overachieving Hermione Granger type who is likely to want to take extra courses merely because she wants to have them. </p>

<p>But the point is that you have to look at more than warm fuzzies when figuring out what college may be the best fit -- and you have to be clear in your own mind as well as clear with your offspring as to what your expectations are along the way. </p>

<p>I want to reiterate that the state college that my son attends is far from perfect. However -- it does offer a residential campus and small classes, and a nice sense of community. The problem is that the pricey LAC he attended for his first 2 years wasn't perfect either. It probably was the best fit possible for what we thought he would need and want in college, but the 18 year old I sent off to college is not the same person as the 24 year old who will graduate next spring. I sometimes joke with him that he attended the "world's most expensive community college" because I don't really see those first 2 years as wasted, but I think in many ways my son wasn't quite ready for a 4 year college.</p>

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<p>Ah, calmom, wise as always. So glad it worked out for your S. And you are right; our girls' school does not charge extra for extra courses. And students can stay for summer on school's dime in some cases and take extra courses, but those do need to be paid for.</p>

<p>OP: How about St. Mary's of MD or New College of FL, public LAC's with all the benefits of LAC's without the cost. There are others of these.</p>

<p>There are solutions, but most solutions require some kind of compromise. However, most students have limitations placed on them by ability, achievement or finances. Very few can attend whichever college they want.</p>

<p>Case in point: Dear friend's D is a model student and Intel semi-finalist. Accepted into all of the colleges she applied to except one -- the one she really wanted, Harvard. She is happy at Yale and wonders why she ever thought she would prefer Harvard. </p>

<p>St. Mary's is completely secular and voted onto many most beautiful campuses lists. Check it out.</p>

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<p>Oh, yes. Lots of worries and what to do if things DON'T work out. And lots of hope that they do not. Regardless of what decision any of us make, we don't know until time passes if it worked out. It's also possible that none of the alternatives would have come to a satisfactory point. Some kids just are going to go through a rough stretch regardless of environment. </p>

<p>Many kids are undecided when they start college and are going because that is what they are "programmed to do" in the sense that everyone around them is going that route. It's what happens once they get to college that makes the difference. I do feel that the larger schools with huge classrooms, teaching assistants, and the tech schools are more difficult for the kids who are really not motivated to go to school and uninterested in academics. There are no perfect choices but some just have a larger probabilty for success than others. </p>

<p>That said, I can tell you that the $15K possibility with RPI would be tempting to me, even feeling that the place is not the best alternative for him. As you said, finances can stand in the way of what you feel is the right way to go. In our case, at this point a state school may be where my son ends up going. And if it does not work out for the reasons I have my reservations about this alternative, I am not thrilled with what to do. Whereas if he should go the "ideal" route, the state school, comm college, work, etc are all standing there still waiting. The pricey LAC your son attended would not likely have waited if he had bombed his first try at local schools, but the local school we have here does not require any applications to enter, and cost and part time studies are available. In that sense, the RPI option is less likely to be around than some other alternatives and the $15K discount for such a school certainly is not going to be around. I guess what I am saying is that when pursuing alternatives, I also like to see which ones are temporary and which ones will be around as next round choices.</p>

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<p>I love St Mary's but for OOSers, it is pricey. We had looked at it 8 years ago for my first son, and it was much less expensive then. I've noticed a tremendous increase in cost for a number of schools that were bargains back at that time. Scary. We are lucky in that we have some low cost alternatives in our state schools and smaller state schools that some state have. But having visited these schools, and some private schools with the same stats, I can tell you that there is a big difference in atmosphere.</p>