Early decison acceptance

Parents Forum
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<p>Calmom, I now see that you are making a distinction between simple breach of contract and fraud (deliberately lying when signing the ED form).
That makes sense to me.</p>

<p>Most contracts allow three business days to change your mind. I guess you are NOT advocating that for ED - I assume you want the ED signer to be able to change his or her mind at any point in time? (Although I still do not see this as a legal contract, just a personal promise, I am asking this as if I DID see it as a legal contact).</p>

<p>I don't see ED as indentured servitude or like a marriage that was not permitted to end in divorce, because the student can always transfer after a semester. Instead, my final problem comes down to: if we allow everyone to sign the ED form and then say they "changed their minds and want out," the signing becomes completely meaningless.</p>

<p>I completely respect your legal training, but if you were behind John Rawls' "veil of ignorance," would YOU want to enter into a contract with yourself - that is, with someone who held that you should be able to get out of any contract simply if you change your mind?</p>

<p>Why have any contracts at all, then? What would "contract" even mean? This applies not only to informal, non-legally-binding promises like the ED contract, but any legal contract as well. But is that your position on ED? Just eliminate it because it is could be a can of legal worms?</p>

<p>We finally come to the end of the road: there are some people who say to eliminate ED because it only benefits the college (or whatever) and others who defend ED (like me) because of the benefit to the mature student who reads the ED document before signing (and it really is very clear, and jargon free).</p>

<p>I'm going to stay pro-choice on this, but you really have raised some interesting and important issues.</p>

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<p>NEdad asks some cogent questions about what is left of contract law if everyone views contracts as easily breached.</p>

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<p>What does the application itself say- is it the same at each ED school? I hear about "checking boxes". but there must be more to it than that....is it clear that if you are accepted, they will notify other schools, what will happen if you don't follow through, how to get out of it, and such </p>

<p>If all of that is totally clear, for instance, list all the ramifications and the applicant should initial each clause. That way, everyone is very clear....then there would not be an excuse that an applicant didn't understand. And have a better systems of handling the situation for a change of heart, with clear dates, a form, etc.</p>

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<p>nedad - I don't understand why people don't get the point that I am making. If I was an attorney advising a college, I'd write an ED contract with a legally enforceable remedy - like a deposit that would be forfeited. It works for EVERYTHING else. It would also have a specific provision set forth for resolution of any disputes - such as adequacy of financial aid award, etc.</p>

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<p>Yes, calmom I see your point. In my ideal world, the current very simple form should be enough - only mature students would sign it with the GC and parents' input, etc. Generally, the forms just say, "X is my first choice college; if admitted, I will attend." But in our litigous society it is only a matter of time before someone sues over this (I mean, sheesh - people sue over the decision to make one person a valedictorian over another!).</p>

<p>I assume you no longer are defending the point that teenagers are too young to sign this (there are too many arguments against that, I think - I co-signed for surgery, for example, for my teen, but he had to sign too). I assume your main problems are the "blacklisting" and financial aid disputes. </p>

<p>For the latter, most GCs strongly, STRONGLY advise not applying ED if financial aid comparison is important. The ED form might add the fact that no level of financial aid is guaranteed; hence the student should apply RD if that is an issue.</p>

<p>My internal jury :) is still out on what you call "blacklisting." If the student backed out for a good reason - death of the family breadwinner, etc. - I'm sure the school wouldn't "report" them. If they back out for fraudulent reasons, the other schools <em>should</em> know what kind of kid they are dealing with! If they backed out because they changed their minds, I know (from experience with students I have counseled as a volunteer) that in at least three instances, the other colleges accepted them anyway----so Marite was right that the schools do with the info what they wish (so it is really not blacklisting but info sharing).</p>

<p>Sigh. Maybe your deposit idea coupled with a line about not applying if finaid is an issue would do it. As I have said before, thank you for an interesting and informative discussion between the worlds of the law and the field of ethics! Sorry that I am usually too tired to be as coherent as I would have liked.</p>

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<p>If the only enforcement mechanism is a money deposit, there is an obvious advantage given to rich applicants.</p>

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<p>Swarthmore's Early Decision language does not require the student to enroll. The wording is limited to other applications. Here is the text:</p>

<hr>

<p>*Swarthmore's Early Decision plans are designed for candidates who have thoroughly and thoughtfully investigated Swarthmore and other colleges and found Swarthmore to be an unequivocal first choice. Upon applying to Swarthmore, Early Decision candidates
may not file early decision applications at other colleges, but they may file early action or regular applications at other colleges with the understanding that these applications will be withdrawn upon admission to Swarthmore.</p>

<p>Any Early Decision candidate not admitted will receive one of two determinations: a deferral of decision, which secures reconsideration for the candidate among the Regular Decision candidates, or a denial of admission, which withdraws the application from further consideration. If one of these determinations is made, the applicant is free to apply to other institutions.*</p>

<p>The student is required to sign and date this statement:</p>

<p>I am applying for Fall or Winter Early Decision, am not applying for any other early decision programs, and
agree to withdraw all other applications, if I am admitted to Swarthmore.</p>

<p>The guidance counselor is required to sign and date this statement:</p>

<p>I certify that the applicant has read the Early Decision section of Swarthmore's application instruction form and is aware of the terms of the Early Decision agreement.</p>

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<p>So it does not require enrollment, but says you must withdraw everywhere else...what does the leave you with?</p>

<p>Early Decision —Students may apply to some colleges under an early decision program, which requires a student to attend that college if admitted. Because of the inherent commitment to attend a college if admitted under early decision, a student can only apply to one early decision college program. In addition, students do not have until May 1 to decide on a school. Students, parents, and/or the guidance counselor may be required to sign a form acknowledging that each understands the terms under early decision.
Parents and students should be aware of a few points about early decision. If a student is not sure of which school they want to attend, the student should not apply under early decision because they must attend that school. If unsure, spend time in the senior year visiting colleges, and making sure you know which school is right. Also, students cannot compare financial aid packages to other schools, if admitted under early decision. The student, thus, loses some of the power when negotiating for any aid increases and/or adjustments. On the other hand, if a student knows with certainty which school they want to attend, early decision can relieve some of the college decision pressure associated with the entire process.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.myfootpath.com/CollegePrep/ed.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.myfootpath.com/CollegePrep/ed.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Very interesting, i-dad. I wonder how many other ED apps don't mention actually enrolling!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So it does not require enrollment, but says you must withdraw everywhere else...what does the leave you with?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, when the time came to withdraw her other applications, it left my daughter with an acceptance letter to her very-well researched, clear 1st choice dream school! This whole ED business is predicated on the assumption that the student really wants to attend the school.</p>

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<p>Same with our family, i-dad. I ended up with extremely happy kids who had known precisely where they wanted to go (based not only on research, but several sleep-over trips to the schools; practicing with the sports teams; meeting with professors in departments they were interested in, etc. etc. etc).</p>

<p>Citygirlsmom, I too did not understand your question. The student is still allowed to apply RD other places (for example, if the RD app date for your second choice is Jan. 1, but you haven't heard from your ED choice, you can mail your RD app) - he or she only has to withdraw everywhere else AFTER getting the acceptance.</p>

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<p>Our state doesn't allow you to change your mind re: auto sales although they do if the seller was going door to door.
At least with college applications you can make decision on your own time, rather than trying to fend off rabid salesman who follow you around wearing you down.</p>

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<p>I, too, am pro-E.D. if the applicant applies E.D. for the right reasons. I don't think anyone who has investigated it the way they should will have any doubt in their mind that the school expects that they will enroll if accepted. Even in that posted Swarthmore agreement, it specifies that Swarthmore is an 'unequivocal first choice'. How much clearer could it be?</p>

<p>As far as the 'blackball' effect, my understanding was that this 'list' which is circulated is, in fact, a list of E.D. acceptees, not a list of kids who have backed out of E.D. Perhaps Jamimom or Carolyn can shed some light. I've heard this from a few individuals who work in Admissions. The list is circulated when E.D. decisions are made, not much later when the colleges would know that people have withdrawn or are fighting their agreement to attend.</p>

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<p>To get back to the OP's case, bear in mind that the OP applied ED to his #3 choice in October. It appears to me that the OP understood fully the rules of ED and chose to game it. Then in December, having secured the ED acceptance, he tried to game it further by declining it so he could await the results of his apps to his two top choices instead of withdrawing his apps to these two colleges</p>

<p>This is speculation on my part based on the following: as many have said, adcoms tweak admissions until the very last minute. It seems most unlikely that they will hold someone they have not yet admitted to his or her ED commitment. Holding an applicant to the ED only makes sense if the decision to admit has already been made. The OP also mentions that the college really wants him and nowhere mentions that the college is breathing hellfire and brimstone, just reminded him of his commitment.</p>

<p>If I were an adcom on any of these three colleges, I would not want such a student. I can see every prof and dean trying to deal with his attempts to game the system for the next four years.</p>

<p>I cannot quote the Princeton website. It makes it clear that once a student has been accepted ED, s/he must withdraw other applications. It does not stipulate what penalties will be incurred for not doing so, but it also makes it quite clear that Princeton reserves the right to rescind an offer of admission on either academic or personal grounds. In other words, unethical-- as opposed to illegal-- behavior is sufficient grounds to rescind admission. It does not take a 5 on AP-English to understand this.</p>

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<p>Alwaysamom:</p>

<p>You are right, the list is a list of ED acceptees. This is why I said what colleges choose to do when they find out that one of their own admits or RD applicants was accepted elsewhere ED is up to them. It is not a blackball list.</p>

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<p>Excellent analysis in post #94 -sounds right to me - and VERY helpful info in post #95 that it is NOT a blackball list sent after the fact (people who have reneged), but merely a list of people who have been accepted. This sounds completely fair and ethical to me, and well within the parameters of the program. It's not rocket science. (I suppose one could argue that it becomes de facto a blackball list, but since the rules are clear upfront (most ED forms are just a few sentences that could not possibly be misunderstood), I think that would be stretching the term so as to lose its original meaning.)</p>

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<p>As I stated earlier, I don't see or have a probelem with ED but rather what ED has come to represent.</p>

<p>On the one hand,I am hearing arguments about that kids are "too young to be committed to one school" and they should be "allowed to change their mind". There is a solution fot tis type of person it is called RD.</p>

<p>ID and a few other parents in talking about their children's expereiences with ED sums it up very well and shows that the process does work. An informed student, parent and GC know the risks going in (commitment to attend, withdrawing applications, and the possibility of having to live with the financial aid hand which you have been dealt) and have balanced those risks against the proposed benefits.</p>

<p>Some people blatantly go into ED from the point of "testing the water", and the ED choice looks really good until a "better' Choice comes along (goes back to the thread where young man got in to Princeton ED, then got into the Honors program, major merit money at his State U, now they can't afford Princeton , so he wants to back out for the free ride). My point is that most people already know how much money they are working with and they also know the cost of attending the ED school in question (there are really no suprises here).</p>

<p>While your ED school cannot make you attend, I am in total agreement with Nedad statement if we allow everyone to sign the ED form and then say they "changed their minds and want out," the signing becomes completely meaningless.
EDis really more an ethical issue (because no shcool is going to drag you to court for not attending their school). What I would like to know is
[list]
What happened to people following through on their commitment?</p>

<p>Why is your word no longer your bond?</p>

<p>Why is it that we can no longer count on people doing what they say they are going to do?</p>

<p>Your good faith effort that stems form the if-then (* if you accept me early, then I will attend*</p>

<p>If character is who you are when no one is watching, what are we doing as parents to ensure that our children are people of character rather than being characters.</p>

<p>What does it say for us as parents, who tell our children yes, go ahead , apply ED then pose the question about "how can your child get out of this" and ultimately get into a snit because some one says what your child did was a bit slimy (because it was).</p>

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<p>Actually, Voronwe, I was too charitable. The OP wants to hang on to the ED admit by converting it to RD after the fact and "</p>