<p>Personally, I think that is ridiculous. I have never met a kid that thinks that way, and I have talked to hundreds, maybe even one thousand about their college choices.</p>
<p>I think the main reason kids switch from ED to RD is because they have second thoughts about the binding nature of ED. I have not heard of kids doing so because their feelings were hurt in ED I, but it certainly may have happened on occasion.</p>
<p>Most kids who opt for ED do so because they know their top first choice (and second choice in the case of EDII), and because they think it might increase their odds for acceptance, and they are bird-in-the-hand types of people.</p>
<p>^^ Very rare occasions, I am sure. Hardly a basis on which to set a strategy.</p>
<p>I can tell you’re a scientist, fallenchemist. ;)</p>
<p>LOL, rent. Yes, but one that has spent most of his career in marketing (albeit for science).</p>
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<p>By now, we know that many GCs are indeed not too competent. However, you’d expect to read the agreements they do HAVE to sign, especially if they are not to familar with the forms. </p>
<p>I posted a link to the ED agreement that comes with the Common Application. I believe that, even for someone who does NOT want to believe it, that is rather cut and dry that you are only supposed to fill of one those … at the same time. </p>
<p>All I can say is that, by the time comes to fill the documents, it might be important for the applicant and the parents to actually read the agreement before signing.</p>
<p>And, since you love the “strawmen” arguments so much, I’m wondering what the experts who seem to have all the answers here would advise you to do in case the EDI is in fact successful but the financial is not EXACTLY what was expected and that some “negotiations” need to take place. Would tehy advise you to withdraw the EDII … you know the one that could not hurt anyone? Would they advise you to let the EDI school know that there was another ED application files at the same time? </p>
<p>Just wondering! But not too much as I have little doubt about what they think of binding agreements and rules.</p>
<p>I am staying away from the ethics/legality aspect, but I do wonder, how do you handle a deferment, if the ED2 is already submitted?</p>
<p>Well, it’s the definition of “at the same time” that we’re quibbling about, xiggi. Does an ED application go “live” the moment that it is submitted, or the moment that the postmark date passes and the apps are officially going in for processing / consideration?</p>
<p>PG, I understand that the definition of what is live is important. But again, I really believe that you could accomplish all you want without triggering any negative issue (and take an unneeded risk.) After all why work extremely hard for 13-14 years and stumble onto a small detail.</p>
<p>My suggestion would be to have everything completed by your own deadlines and simply have the GC signature missing on the EDII agreement. When December 15 comes around, all what is needed is for the GC to sign an agreement that does not violate a single term, place the agreement in the express envelope you provided the school, and let everyone enjoy Christmas knowing all is well. Of course, tracking the package might be a sound idea too. :)</p>
<p>Also, fwiw, depending on the school, please remember that you might be able (or have to) submit a different set of documents to the colleges (since the EDII packages might be more complete.)</p>
<p>The only definition that matters is what the admissions office tells you. It doesn’t matter what any of us says on College Confidential. Call the colleges and ask!</p>
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<p>First of all, look up the definition of a “strawman argument”. I think you will find you have misused the term.</p>
<p>Second, let’s continue with your scenario. So you get into ED I, but you don’t know if you are going to get the FA you need yet. This is why you still apply to other schools, and I would include ED II in that. Even waiting until Dec 15 to submit the ED II doesn’t solve your scenario, if they are in limbo on financial aid.</p>
<p>Why should a student have to give up the advantage one gains from showing greater interest in a school (the ED II) because the ED I is either slow to inform about FA or isn’t giving enough? One can ponder all sorts of scenarios, but if the ED II is truly the student’s second choice and ED I is in doubt, why is the student penalized because of the needs of the college? Why does the college hold all the power here, or phrased differently, why is the college’s needs of greater importance? I think we all agree colleges do give more weight to applications where they know the student is likely to come (assuming they are qualified of course), but the student cannot express that level of interest through their process until they complete some kind of negotiation with the ED I? Yeah, that’s fair. Again, the spirit of the ED process is to have a stated level of interest with a school. That interest of course depends on financial aid in many cases. The same could be true of the ED II school, which is why everyone needs a financial safety. Well, not everyone I guess.</p>
<p>I probably didn’t make myself clear at all before, I admit. I am sure there is no reason a person couldn’t have everything for the ED II ready to go, wait until Dec 15 and send the materials off then if still needed, just as you say. I just really object to all the “fine tuning” and (I think) confusion having these different categories of applications causes.</p>
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<p>Oh, that happened to be a bit of an inside joke pushed too far --including the deliberate use of the plural.</p>
<p>However, leaving PG out of this one, I think that your scenario of a student keeping an EDI alive past January 1 and at the same time an EDII is being reviewing is the perfect example of using a loophole that goes against the spirit AND the terms of the Early Decision process. And the same scenario offers one of the strongest rebuttals to the theory that filing two ED applications at the same (I and II) does not … hurt anyone!</p>
<p>Fwiw, the issue of being able to extend the reply to a financial aid package has been debated ad nauseam on College Confidential. And, not much will ever change the mind of people who are very divided on the applicability of true deadlines.</p>
<p>Inside joke to who?</p>
<p>Anyway, you misunderstand what I am saying, so let me say it more clearly. If by Dec 15 the student has not received a total package (acceptance plus aid) that is acceptable, then they certainly do have to make a decision regarding the ED I. If they are going to continue to pursue it in the hopes of getting a better FA package, then absolutely they need to let the ED II school know they are changing to RD. If they want to instead go after the ED II school, possibly because the ED I offer was so far off they know it is hopeless to expect enough aid, then they tell the ED I school that they cannot accept the offer for financial reasons. Pretty simple, and no one hurt, and no different than waiting until Dec 15 to submit the ED II.</p>
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<p>I agree with xiggi. PG, you are in a binding agreement, satisfying all ED prerequisite conditions, the moment you submit the app. Submitting an ED 2 app while having an outstanding ED/ED I app is a clear violation of that agreement.</p>
<p>Fallenchemist, the reply I wrote that contained the “strawmen” comment was addressed to Pizzagirl. I hope that this also clears that confusion up. </p>
<p>On the ED scenarios, without restarting the lengthy debate on the exact terms of the ED agreements, let me simply state that I happen to disagree with the possibilities you described. And this for the simplest of reason. When you apply ED, you are bound to attend the school and bound to withdraw all other applications. However, because of the additional language added to the Common Application, students MAY be released from this commitment in case of receiving insufficient financial aid. Adding the looser interpretation of some some, there is also a theory (incorrect in my opinion) that families can extend the acceptance of the ED offer and start negotiating for a suitable package all the while maintaining all other applications. </p>
<p>I beleve that the scenarios are: </p>
<ol>
<li>You can only file one ED application.</li>
<li>In case the ED application is rejected, all bets are off.</li>
<li>In case the ED application is approved, you have to accept or decline by the stated deadline. There is no “negotiation” standstill period.</li>
<li>In case the ED offer is declined, the applicant should request a release of the commitment which MIGHT be granted</li>
<li>When the offer is declined and the release is granted, the student can pursue other applications.</li>
</ol>
<p>xiggi, thanks for your concern, but the FA issue was not on the table. I totally understand the issues with applying ED when FA is an issue.</p>
<p>So basically, to be on the safe side, best to apply ED I as planned (and any EA’s!) … getting any ED II apps ready, but waiting to push the final button until an ED I rejection is in hand (which in this scenario means waiting til mid / end December) to ensure that we are not in any violation of having two ED’s “live” even if the times don’t overlap. Certainly doable; this discussion helps me control my “what? it’s not all in yet?” tendencies. Thanks to all.</p>
<p>but what will you do if the ED1 is a deferral? Hold off on the ED2?</p>
<p>That’s up to my kids, not me, as to how much they value the bird in the hand versus the two in the bush.</p>
<p>Yes, it’s tough when the college application experience starts to resemble high stakes gambling… Good luck to you and your kids during this process. I do think that having everything ready to go early is a plus, especially if, and keeping my fingers crossed that it isn’t the case, there is bad news from the ED1. That can be deflating and having to put together apps to meet the Jan. deadlines in the wake of bad news, probably not so good. On the other hand, if the ED1 is an admittance — happy holidays!!!</p>
<p>fallenchemist: Read posts 57 and 58 for validation of my position that sometimes an ED I deferral may give a student just enough hope to cause him/her to forego the ED II application. </p>
<p>It must be nice to have such a perfect view into the hearts and minds of 17- and 18-year- olds.</p>