ED vs RD

Parents Forum
1

<p>I'm hoping to get a little more perspective on our family situation as we've gone round and round with this and can't come to a conclusion. My younger DD is a senior this year. She has wanted to be a veterinarian since she was very young. She owns a horse, shadows our local vet, is involved in 4-H, and works on her grandparents farm. She is also very involved in other areas-Student Government President, student member on our county board of ed among other things. She has a 4.0 unweighted GPA (4.5 weighted) and 35 ACT. I mention these items because her dream school is Cornell for animal science. I don't think Cornell is impossible with her stats and ECs but obviously a reach for everyone. After visiting the school, she decided that she'd like to apply ED since it is her top choice and to show that she is committed to attend.</p>

<p>Our main issue is one of financial aid. When D2 goes to college next fall, we will have two children in college (D1 is a student at Columbia). I've run the NPC several times for Cornell but I feel like I can't trust the result because my husband owns a business and that muddies the waters of accuracy when completing the NPC. I know that ED is binding except for financial reasons but she wants the extra push toward acceptance that ED can give. She does have other schools in mind including our state university, but unless she ends up with a full ride there, it may cost us more than Cornell even with merit money. She is looking at schools with either animal science (mostly state flagships have it-but the out of state ones are very expensive even with merit) or biology at a school with connections to a vet school or somewhere she can do research.</p>

<p>So the question is, as we are not full pay (our EFC is fairly low and D1 is getting wonderful fin aid at Columbia) do you think it is worth it to apply to Cornell ED for the extra chance of getting accepted but a possible loan scenario? We are trying to avoid loans for UG since vet school debt will be massive. Or apply everywhere RD and see what aid/merit she gets but maybe she won't get into her top choice? Also, any other school ideas? She is also possibly looking at Tufts. She wants to stay in the eastern third of the country. Thanks for sticking with me here and for any advice you can give!</p>

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<p>Wanted to mention that she is definitely applying to our state school, just not sure if it will be cheaper.</p>

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<p>Given your kid’s stats (leaning her towards a very strong likelihood of admit) and the iffy FinAid situation, I’d eschew Cornell ED. But that’s only one opinion. Nonetheless best of luck to your family.</p>

4

<p>Thanks for your comment T26E4-That’s my take on it as well, I’d rather be able to compare FA offers, but her dad is of the opposite opinion. D2 is just getting wound up in the decision.</p>

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<p>I agree with T26. That is too much risk. She should get into Cornell RD with her numbers, and, if not, she should have other wonderful options.</p>

<p>We visited Texas A&M, and we were told on the tour that it is the top ranked Vet school in the country. Not sure if that is accurate, but might be worth looking at. Your D would need to like that environment, obviously, but much different price tag than an Ivy, notwithstanding FA.</p>

<p>Good luck with the search.</p>

6

<p>Thanks Cold-working on completing a list of viable options. Will have her check out Texas A&M as well.</p>

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<p>Your EFC should remain the same no matter how many children you have in college. If your EFC is, say, $5,000/year now, with one child in college, it will still be $5,000/year with two children in college. And the aid will make up for it. At least this is my understanding.</p>

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<p>Have you tried running Cornell’s net price calculator using your husband’s gross income or business revenue before business or employment related deductions that may be added back by college financial aid offices?</p>

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<p>Brantly is mistaken-- the FAFSA EFC is calculated separately for each child, and when there is more than one child in college, then part of the EFC for each child will be reduced. Just as a quick example-- lets say a family has 2 kids in college. Each child also has some money in savings and some money from part time jobs, but let’s say that one child has earned or saved significantly more than the other.</p>

<p>There are two parts to the EFC - parental contribution and child’s contribution. With 2 in college, the parent’s share is cut in half – but added into that is the child’s share.</p>

<p>When my daughter started college, her older brother also returned to college after a gap of several year – he had been working full time and saving up to return to college, and was financially independent for tax purposes but still a dependent for FAFSA purposes. So he had at least $10K in the bank, and a significant income to report;, whereas daughter probably had less than $500 in savings and total earnings were quite small EFC for Son was about $15K; EFC for daughter was about $5K. Son attended a public U. at full cost; D. went to a private college and qualified for a small Pell grant as well as other need based aid.</p>

<p>Of course, neither Cornell nor Columbia relies on the FAFSA EFC for calculating aid – they both require the CSS Profile. All CSS Profile schools have their own standards and policies, and consider various types of income and assets differently. </p>

<p>To OP: You are right to realize that your husband’s business muddies the water tremendously, as it is likely that the college will ask for tax returns or other records, and they may very well adjust his income upward by adding back items that taken as business deductions. They might also treat some sort of business assets as personal. </p>

<p>I agree with the others who have advised that your daughter’s stats are very strong and she should end up with some very good choices when applying RD.</p>

<p>ED is very risky in your situation because it could force you to making a decision without complete information as to financial aid. You would have a tentative, subject-to-change offer from Cornell, that would likely include loans as part of the package – and nothing to compare it to. (Cornell simply cannot compete with Columbia on the financial aid front) The worst case outcome for someone in your daughter’s position is to have to turn down a spot at her dream school because the financial aid seems inadequate, only to find out in the spring that none of her other choices are all that much better. At least if you have all the awards in hand, you can make a more reasoned decision about borrowing.</p>

<p>The best case scenario, of course, is that there are several good and affordable offers RD – and in that context, turning down one’s dream school in favor of a near-equivalent with substantially better financial aid is a lot easier.</p>

<p>Bottom line: ED is a terrible option for self-employed parents who need financial aid to put their kids though college. </p>

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<p>Okay, I stand corrected. I was thinking about the parental portion halved for the FAFSA. That was my confusion.</p>

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<p>Can you call up financial aid at Cornell, explain the situation, and ask them to give you a set of preliminary numbers using 2013 data? Can’t hurt, might help.</p>

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<p>Being a vet is not very lucrative. Even more than med school, it is a good idea to attend a school that minimizes debt and allows her to save as much as possible toward vet school. There was just an article in our paper about some vet students nearing graduation at our state university who are deeply, and really hopelessly in debt. Unless you parents are moneybags who will freely shell out for any undergrad and vet program, she should compare financial offers before deciding, and consider going with the most reasonable one. We all WANT to attend famous/top schools AND expensive grad programs AND do what we want for a living without worrying about what it pays. But that is not reality. Someone has to act like an adult here – sounds like there is only one person doing that right now between you, your H, and your D.</p>

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<p>If you are willing to walk away from an accept from Cornell if the fin aid package makes it imprudent for you to send your daughter there, then go on ahead and give it a go. You already have fin aid with your first student at Columbia, so you can have a discussion/negotiation with Cornell about the package if it is not what you expect. When your run the NPCs for Columbia, given the info you gave them for fin aid, does the result seem to match what you actually got for your first daughter? Though that does not necessarily mean Cornell, or any school, for that matter, will treat your business the same way that Columbia does, you do have a chance that some might, and you can bring up the fact your experience right there with COlumbia.</p>

<p>Owning a business or other things that are not straight forward for college financial aid can result in widely different ways schools handle the matter. There was a student this year who got little or nothing from Swarthmore, which is regarded a generous school because of the way it viewed the family business. An appeal got nowhere. But then another LAC, a like one, came up with a package that worked. So who knows how Cornell or any school (other than Columbia) will view your set up. Only way to find out is to give it a whirl. </p>

<p>Frankly, I don’t find Cornell the best prep for premed or pre vet or other such programs where grades are heavily counted. The curve is very steep there for natural science courses, IMO. Not only would I look for a reasonably priced school, due to the cost of vet school, and the future prospects of a vet, but also look for a school more nurturing. </p>

<p>But if the only issue is financial in your minds, the big question is whether you can withstand what i call “the Big Mo”, the momentum of ED when accepted, and resist those puppy dog eyes begging you to come up with the money somehow when your family really should not be taking that financial path. I’ve seen that happen many times with families and ED. It’s so important that the beloved child gets dream school, that the parent makes that decision that is really unaffordable. It’s also distressing when you find out later, peers, classmates getting some nice money from other schools that were on your kid’s list and as you are taking Tums for your heartburn and rumianting and worrying about how you are going to pay for a school that costs too much, your kid says right out that they could have, would have gladly gone to ABC College, if you’d made it clear that you could not afford this school. </p>

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<p>They won’t do it.</p>

15

<p>Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. All else being equal, financial aid is really the big item in our minds. With our oldest daughter, Columbia was cheaper than our in-state flagship, even considering my husband’s business and scholarships. And, although D2 wants to attend Cornell for its animal science program, we obviously can’t overlook the higher cost. The NPC for Cornell (figuring in the business) is giving me double the actual net cost of what I’m getting from Columbia’s NPC using two children in college, same numbers. Both girls have similar savings. We were out for my birthday dinner this evening and had a talk about this. RD with the chance to compare FA packages and merit from several schools is the likely scenario for us at this point. We just need to come up with a really solid list of possibilities. Any suggestions of schools would be helpful. </p>

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<p>^^what state do you live in? With Vet school, I’d recommend attending school in a state that has one. </p>

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<p>MD, so we don’t actually have a vet school although the Virginia-MD regional college of vet medicine does have a small number of in-state spots for MD residents. In-state would definitely help for vet school! UMD-College Park was more $ than the Cornell NPC unless she would get a really good scholarship from them. She plans to apply there by their priority deadline for scholarship purposes.</p>

18

<p>What state do you live in? The Agriculture and Life Sciences college is cheaper for NY State residents</p>

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<p>MD = Maryland (see post #16).</p>

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<p>Schools with excellent animal science programs and vet schools (where her scores and geography would probably get her merit offers): Auburn Univ., Va. Tech., NC State, Univ. of Georgia, Texas A&M I’m sure there are others ever further into the Mid-west and West.</p>