Why should @Mom6 or anyone withdraw an application because it may not be the current “#1 choice”? If UVA posted that, it’s ludicrous. UVA and any college should know that rating a school is a subjective fluid process. Some suggest that rating schools to begin may be counterproductive. A friend advised his S not to rate any of his applications until all responses and scholarship offers are in. What was originally not thought to be as strong a contender may move up if financial aid or other awards come through, some may move down.
What was subjectively thought to be “#1” six months ago may be #5 today, but back to #1 or #2 in April, based on what happens in the coming months. There are many factors that contribute to a final decision to choose a school ,beyond cost, such as size, school spirit, major, location, climate, and many others. A first impression of a school in the summer may change upon visiting a second time during the school year or after admission. @Mom6 paid an application fee and deserves to get a definitive answer as to whether D is offered admission and, if interested, what financial aid or other awards may still be offered. Agree with @bernie12 that it’s not our place to judge @Mom6 if her D is not fully decided yet. Deciding on the “fit” of a school may take many months or even a year or more.
@VANDEMORY1342, just because many schools might encourage withdrawing an application if their school is not a student’s #1 choice (which I’m not entirely sure that many schools do), it’s not relevant. A student saying she would consider attending only with merit or scholarship does not mean the school is a poor fit. It may be less of a fit than another school that offers a huge award or better financial aid package in April, or after revisiting several colleges under consideration after being admitted, but that won’t be known for a couple of months. Conversely, the student may, upon looking at all the offers, decide that the higher cost school is the best choice given the other options in April. An application fee was paid to Emory in exchange for a response of admission or not. That’s the deal.
“DS was on the fence about Emory because of its size, but would consider attending with a scholarship. Maybe they could sense that?” It’s possible or the Scholars answer could go deeper as Bernie expressed earlier (not about grades and scores). Either way, if Emory was a low priority for her son, then maybe this works out for the best.
@VANDEMORY1342 : I don’t think Emory gets as many applicants as UVA…and just because they have such statements does not mean I need to agree with their ideas. That can work if they are VERY early into the review process, which they are not. In fact, I suspect there will be a surprising number of Liberal Arts Scholarships coming out, perhaps far beyond the numbers of early admits. If the student is admitted, gets the Liberal Arts Scholarship (which the office says they are still deliberating even after this round of Scholars and early admits), and then comes for an Open House, they may actually like the place. I don’t know. How can any of us know? Yes, it would be nice if Emory was really liked by the person from the get go, but it is RD and the number of applications per school is insane now-a-days. It is unlikely that any school except maybe HYPSM and that tier would be someone’s number 1 or 2 among those applying to elites.
@Nomorelurker I am not down for controlling yield through such tactics (these rankings games have gone a little crazy and you are seeing some “interesting” tactics pop up…and trust me, Emory is familiar, though luckily its current process appears distanced from that past thank goodness!). That is basically forcing “clear decision making” onto a 17 or 18 year old…good luck. Yield can be controlled by…I don’t know, making more students want to actually choose you as a top (or near) choice even in RD which may take work on behalf the school (some schools can play to social life and some will have to play up other attributes…Emory must continue to improve and play up academic oppurtunities that may make it stand out, but point is…schools can do the hard work and not “cheat” or manipulate things. It may not get them immediate returns, but can pay off in the long run while allowing them to keep their souls) This shouldn’t be a game. They need to be able to come up with a model to predict this without basically cheating.
@bernie12, agree that if a school is doing a great job, some students may get an initial impression similar to a “love at first sight” or “this is an unbelievable fit for me” attitude. Unfortunately, not all families can afford to pay full tuition. They may need to wait to see if they get merit or enough financial aid.
It has been pointed out that Emory does a better job than some comparable schools, to make it possible for lower income (and many middle class) families to afford to pay for tuition, whether via merit or generous financial aid packages. However, no matter how great a job a school might do to present itself as a top or #1 choice, some students are going to naturally waver as they do more research and visit other schools. Thus, my earlier post that many families will want to wait for all offers and admissions to be on the table before making a final decision.
@Nomorelurker : The income thing at Emory is interesting to say the least and can kind of be double-edged apparently. The interesting thing about catering to the lower income block (as opposed to the 100k block, which in context of these schools is actually middleclass since tuition is insane!), is that it is much harder to get them to apply to elite privates in the first place (this has been shown) as most of the qualified ones assume they are out of reach, so that means among those who are seriously aware of how it works, Emory may be playing for this block who is spreading its application in the same manner more wealthy students are. It is miraculous Emory has started to increase in applications again (pre-conversion of essay to short answer in supplement even) considering that word spreads quickly among that 100k+ block about which schools “treat them the best” when it comes to financial aid and that is a big grey/struggle area for Emory versus many competitors. In addition to this, there seems to be some inverse correlation between certain quality of life issues and access to truly poorer students (you know, if you aren’t Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Stanford endowment levels) which came to my attention through the Revisionist history podcast and then I looked into it more and it kind of just made sense.
Catering to the lower portion of the income spectrum may mean that the school can safely spend more on academics and that sort of infrastructure as more such students may be more appreciating of that aspect, whereas if you do actually start getting more of the 100k+ block, they may be more concerned about things about how “good” the food is (you will honestly see more wealthy students constantly complain about “the DUC” at Emory than you will truly middle and lower class in context of US incomes), whether the dorm is a palace, an insane gym, almost a bias towards non-academic amenities, which to many outsiders, parents, and lower income brackets may be really nice, but they are looking for the absolute shiniest in terms of things like that, at least the block that Emory competes for. Emory seems to compete for students against WUSTL and VU for example which clearly have recently have put a lot more effort into such things lately whereas it looks like Emory (Emory had its fancy days, obviously) today has been focusing on things less visible, marketable and I guess “sexy” to outsiders like undergraduate curriculum changes and additions. Until Emory does enough of this to be a true contender among those in that “100k block” that may be more tuned to/care a bit more about available academic and development resources, it will have a hard time.
And there plenty of such students, because they spread themselves across several top privates, even other non-Ivies that are not as “fancy” amenity wise as some schools, but offer stand out strong opportunities that are so noteworthy, that they will pass up the “fancy” schools that give off a more vague sense of academic excellence and instead attend attempting to pursue said programs. It is like Emory is in between the “fancy” block and the “serious” block and it doesn’t do enough to stand out amongst either constituent. I personally think Emory would do better and has historically done better with the latter (before all of the dorm renovations and things like that which may have attracted the “I want shiny” crowd more: Princeton Review rankings to me are not real rankings since they survey students which, once they get certain rankings, may try to replicate every year for whatever reasons. I think high rankings in certain categories typically represents the values of the students. And Emory was/is clearly one of the more cerebral schools in its tier as the library and labs used to come to the mind of students to rank high, now you are starting to that disappear in favor of dorms…did the library get worse? Uhm no…the students it attracts in one year may care about some things more than others, so they have strong feelings about it.) and should try to do that now if it actually wants to remain accessible to lower income families, buying time to raise money to improve its communications and marketing more, as well as raising scholarship funds (doing that now apparently), so that it can basically attract and yield the students in those higher ranges that fit this direction.
@Nomorelurker, agree that for my DS, it is wise to hear back from all the colleges before making any decision. As @Nomorelurker and @Bernie12 have pointed out, this is a fluid process: a college that might not have seem ike the “perfect” fit initially, can catapult to first choice when DS holistically compares actual admission offers, side by side.
@VANDEMORY1342 Withdrawing an application is only for those students who are absolutely sure they will not attend Emory unless they are given a scholarship. That is not the case with my DS. Sorry you misunderstood my post. There are wonderful things about Emory that really appeals to DS. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have applied.
@bernie12 and ljberkow Completely agree that the selection process for EA (for RD students) and scholars involve so much more than stats. We are not surprised or “bitter” about it. I just posted DS’s info so that other high stat kids know that they weren’t the only ones that didn’t get anything.
@bernie12 and @nomoreluker- thanks for your kind words
Basically, I think it is an optimization strategy, and Emory has reached an upper limit on “fanciness”, and needs to focus more on enhancing, creating, and marketing the standout academic programs, enhancing advising, some aspects of social/intellectual life (though even for compared to some other elites…intellectual life could be worse. Being a pre-professional factory does do something though) and creating more “hooks” for super talented/“ready to run” freshman admits (like Duke’s FOCUS programs, Penn’s VIPER program, Princeton’s Integrated Science track, Harvard and other top 10-12 schools honors and accelerated courses that mainly target 1st years), things that will make it look more like or stand out among the schools for whose students it may want to compete with (it seems most of Emory’s near ranked competitors, including the “14 ranked” minus Cornell, are lacking in the latter. Again, looks like Emory and them attract tons those who don’t go beyond an appreciation for a vague sort of academic excellence whereas a person seriously applying to/who will enroll at some top 10s/near top 10 will have heard about very specific programs and even special courses, and experiential opps before visiting or even applying, so such schools get a lot of students who demand or want to fill those tracks…which other privates may not offer or don’t market heavily). Seems Emory wants to go in this direction (Emory had an abundance of it pre-recession), but you must first get back in a position to attract those who demand and will thus take advantage of such options (pre-professionalism gone awry can clearly hinder this as they have to upkeep GPAs, so if you aren’t attracting particularly fearless students, it is hard to encourage acceleration options/those that are more academically rigorous than the baseline for those tracks and majors. Getting them to use AP credits to do more than knock out a non-major related gen. ed is like pulling teeth for example). Those who become super comfy with the food and facilities may not have the highest academic expectations I hate to say it, despite their paper based credentials.
@bernie12 - You wrote, “In fact, I suspect there will be a surprising number of Liberal Arts Scholarships coming out, perhaps far beyond the numbers of early admits”, and gave me a bit of renewed hope for my D’s chances of affording Emory. She was offered early admission to Oxford along with her rejection from Emory Scholars. Oxford/Emory would be her first choice if we can make it work financially because she loves the idea of starting out at the smaller location and then moving to the Atlanta campus for research opportunities, etc., her last two years.
Can I ask what makes you think there will be lots of Liberal Arts Scholarships awarded? Do you have any idea of how many are awarded and/or when they’re awarded? Thank you so much for all the great information you provide on Emory - your posts are so helpful!
@Emmycat : I feel as if they would not have waited “until the smoke clears” to begin awarding them. In addition, I believe the scholarship endowment has grown some since previous years so they may have some more money for partial scholarships. It seems that they care for the quality of this applicant pool for some reason. If they didn’t want to take care of more folks than normal, they just would have offered LA Scholarships immediately to all of the early admits, but they are clearly considering those who didn’t even check the box so are waiting…this should renew at least some hope that she could get something. You really never know. People have been surprised by these after not being offered an interview to the main Scholars weekend. Issue is…I don’t know if a partial scholarship like the Liberal Arts Scholarship applies to Oxford. I only know of the ECAS context because when I was back in Atlanta I continued to tutor over there and some students would say they got that. I would certainly hope they have something more than just Oxford Scholars for those admits.
Also, they look like they a) have a bias towards those who did lots of community oriented work and b) Are also sometimes given to those who have a lot of academic talent but did not quite make the cut for Scholars. I view it as a “we feel we really want you here and will level the playing field by throwing some surprise money at you” gesture.
UVA did not suggest withdrawing if UVA was not applicant’s first choice. They suggested withdrawing if student had been ADMITTED to their first choice and it was not UVA. Different suggestion and not unreasonable to me.
Seems reasonable if admitted to “first choice” AND can afford to pay or choose to pay the potentially higher costs than UVA or other higher cost schools, AND if the “first choice” is still the best fit and has no chance of moving down based on other potential offers/acceptances or unforseen circumstances, AND if the student/family is not interested in waiting for any other strong contenders that might provide a better financial package or other unexpected scholarship that could move the needle in terms of how close the “second” or “third” choice might be to #1, AND if they are 100% sure that they will not matriculate at UVA, no matter the circumstances. That (IMHO) might be reasonable!
“Also, they look like they a) have a bias towards those who did lots of community oriented work and b) Are also sometimes given to those who have a lot of academic talent but did not quite make the cut for Scholars. I view it as a “we feel we really want you here and will level the playing field by throwing some surprise money at you” gesture.”
@bernie12 I would say that is an accurate characterization of what DD just experienced.
@grandscheme and @VANDEMORY1342 – The only reason why any student should ever withdraw and application from consideration would be if that student were to have been accepted through a binding Early Decision program at another school. There is no advantage whatsoever in withdrawing an application from consideration once it has been submitted.
It absolutely does seem like an unreasonable request to me – If UVA (or any school) wants students to withdraw their applications if they are no longer interested in the school, they should offer to refund the application fee. Then, perhaps, asking a student to withdraw would not be unreasonable. The school just doesn’t want its yield negatively affected by admitting students who have no intention of attending.
As far as I’m concerned, if the applicant did the work for the application (which, if memory serves, in the case of UVA, was not insubstantial, as they required several supplements unique to their school) and if the student either paid the application fee or had a fee waiver, that student deserves to find out whether or not his/her application was competitive and whether or not s/he would be admitted.
UVA was far from my D’s top choice, but had she been awarded the Jefferson Scholarship, it might have gone up significantly in her personal ranking. Alas, this was not the case. An acceptance with an Echols scholarship was hardly enough incentive for her to choose UVA over other options, but it was nice to have another acceptance under her belt.
I think you are making too much of the statement from UVA. It was not a mandate. It was not a formal pronouncement.The admissions official who suggested that is very interactive with applicants. She is also very honest about how significantly their applicant pool continues to grow. They are buried for months and months reading thousands and thousands of apps.They don’'t just skim off the top and toss; they make a point of really considering each applicant, so that means each application requires a commitment of time from them.
Yes, students put effort in to their applications and they (usually) have paid an application fee, and “deserve” a decision, but if you know you aren’t going to go, regardless of whether you are accepted or rejected, then what is the issue? Her comment was not about yield protection. It was a simple reminder to high school kids in their own little bubbles WHO HAVE ALREADY CHOSEN TO GO ELSEWHERE over UVA and who may not think of the impact laving a submitted application in the pile has.
You said UVA was far from your D’s top choice. My D likewise just learned she is not going to Jefferson Scholarship finalist weekend; she has not yet decided about UVA or Emory or several others. She has, however, pulled a pending application to another school and has also pulled an acceptance from a third school-with honors and huge scholarships (to my chagrin)-because she knows that of her options to date, others rank higher.
Acceptances under the belt might feel like trophies, but they have an impact on the greater unwieldy process, and for one to get an offer of admission, another does not. Why would you want your student to hold an unwanted spot that someone else would love to have?