Understood…Michigander kids and their families revere acceptance to UofM or the University of Chicago and a few others, too. That “feeling” is not limited to one section of the country - every region has it’s college that is desirable and respected by people that live there. But I would also posit that “athletic” support is an entirely different thing and in this modern age, expansion is primarily driven by revenue and secondarily to be associated by academic reputation - although I wonder if that might have been a tiny part of Rutgers and Maryland’s desire to be part of the Big10 or B1G or whatever they are calling themselves now!
@momofthreeboys, not sure what point you are directing to me about consortiums in various regions. The Ivy League in my opinion only has meaning in the sense of those particular eight institutions’ relationship to college athletics. Yes, the rep of the “Ancient Eight” is a whole nother thing. And many here can argue for many pages over whether any one particular school would still be revered if it wasn’t in that particular sports conference. I personally have no idea how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but I do think the Ivy is unique, for the reasons I have stated, as a sports conference.
And while you are certainly correct that many schools participate in Div 2 or Div 3, that is a competely different animal from what the Ivy is trying to do.
It always amuses me when people refer to the Ivies today as a sports league. You really think that’s the rush? All those apllications because of the sports rep?
They should add a couple of schools and call it the Big Ivy League. Add an ESPN subchannel called iESPN and they’re all set. Even better, they could go with a really pretentious one word name for the league like Privates.
That’s because it is, as they themselves would describe.
Of course not. However, you (I assume) and I also know that there are several colleges/universities that are on par (or slightly better) than some of those 8. But not all applicants (or their parents) realize this.
Yes, of course.
No, of course not.
What’s your point?
What is possible and would probably make sense is an “Academic League”. Similar to the AAU but one that focuses on undergraduate studies instead of research. I can see around 30-50 Universities/LAC’s making the cut. Something similar to the “Russell Group” in the UK
That’s like saying Apple is the company that makes iPods. It’s a correct statement but isn’t the reason people think of Apple. As for self-description, there is a “Gentlemen’s Club” a few miles away, but I’ve yet to see a gentleman there. Read any of the school newspapers after admissions decisions, and let me know how many non-sports league statistics they use in comparing to other institutions?
Tell 100 people who don’t know anything about your kid that they are going to an Ivy League school, and most likely a handful (of jaded, disillusioned parents) will assume they are an elite athlete. Most of them will take a look at you and wonder what lever you pulled…URM…nah. First generation…not the case. Wonder if their kids are really that smart?
This is just my opinion so please don’t give me too much flack for it but I think that (in general) Ivy athletes choose their school and the league for the following reasons
- Athletically they are just short of being considered for a power conference but are better than a lower D1 school
- Are very competitive in their sport, so they’re looking for that level in the school’s program, but most likely not going to do their sport professionally or at the Olympics
- Smart or uber smart so they value a good education at a reputable school
- View their recruitment as more of a long term decision rather than a 4 year sports-focused one
- The FA at Ivies is pretty unbeatable
I’m sure there are more reasons but those are what came to mind. Again, the Ivy League is unique in athletic recruiting in that they’re D1 but offer no athletic scholarships. They really have to identify and target a niche student-athlete for this league and then ‘sell’ them on high level athletics and academics
That’s not exactly analogous, but OK. Just because a bunch of people just a term out of context does not mean that it is correct. Lots of people say LIE berry and NUKE yoo lar, it doesn’t mean that is the standard usage.
Anyway, I’m not saying that people don’t have their own perception of what Ivy League means (even if they have no clue which schools are in it), the fact remains that the grouping and the name came about officially as a result of its establishment as an athletic league. So I was simply stating that I am not “surprised” when the term is correctly used.
Div III’s don’t give any schollies for athletics either other than a wink and a nod which is what the Ivy League does. But I guess I just never, ever though of the Ivy League as a “power athletic conference” but then I’m not a hugely engaged sports fan.
People apply to Ivy league schools because they are good schools. People apply to Stanford and Duke and Chicago because they are good schools.
I think students who apply to all 8 Ivy league schools really have no interest in attending Dartmouth, but it’s part of the Ivies and if they want to claim they got into all the Ivies, they have to apply. If given a choice between Dartmouth and Stanford, I bet most take Stanford. Out here in the west, Stanford is the dream school. For sports and academics. Many more athletes want to get into Stanford than any of the Ivies.
The Ivy League is the single strongest higher education brand globally and it has little to do with sports.
All the non-athlete graduates of those schools are still “Ivy Leaguers.” Brown and Penn get tons of mojo from being “Ivy League” schools that JHU (a very similar school) just doesn’t get. Same for Dartmouth vs. Tufts or Williams or Middlebury. Or Cornell vs. Colgate or Hamilton.
But if you want to play the sports conference expansion parlor game, your most likely add would be Georgetown. D1 but lightly scholarshipped (and still non-scholarship in football). Not an AAU research college member, but Dartmouth isn’t either. DC location isn’t too bad for travel. Their marque basketball program would take a step big step back (by becoming non-scholarship). But that program has been in decline for a while anyway and the new Big East conference just isn’t the same thing as the old Big East. And basketball at Penn and Princeton has some good history. Gtown also plays Ivy sports like lacrosse and rowing.
After Gtown, Hopkins is the next most logical. Reasonable location. AAU member. D1 already in mens and womens lacrosse which is a strong Ivy sport. D3 (so non-scholarship) in all other sports. I’m sure either Gtown or JHU would do what would be necessary to transition to an Ivy League sports program. Since the halo effect benefits of being “Ivy League” would be so great outside of sports. Not seeing any reason why the Ivies would want/need to extend any invitations though.
W&M not a fit imho. Too far away. And the IL is already (and grudgingly) stuck with one state school already. They don’t want a second.
Or you could do Army and Navy. They kinda fit, but kinda don’t (especially in football).
Let’s talk about some apparent underlying assumptions here. I think that most people’s interest in expanding the league most likely is to be able to lay claim to the bragging rights that go with it. It’s like wanting to expand an exclusive club just enough to make yourself or your child a member, but not enough to stop it from being exclusive.
Yes, those of us who attended other prestigious schools, or whose children do so, cannot claim to be at an Ivy League school.
Who cares? Do you need that stamp of membership on your college to be proud of it? That is silly.
I have commented on this forum before that I dislike the use of terms such as Little Ivy, Hidden Ivy, and Public Ivy. Why does life have to be lived in comparison to eight schools, albeit great ones? I personally would retire all such comparative and inaccurate terms.
There are eight members of the Ivy League. They all happen to be academically stellar colleges who share a sports conference. Of course they will stay the only eight. Why would they ever want to change that, when everyone looks up to the Ivy League label so much? It would dilute their brand.
The wiser course is for everyone to stop caring about the Ivy label per se. If you want to apply to an Ivy League school, do so. If you want to apply to Hopkins or Chicago or Georgetown or Williams or Hamilton, do so. The label is a nice plus if you happen to be in one of the 8 member schools, but it is not really needed if you are at one of the many other great schools out there.
@TheGreyKing I totally agree with you. But on a site where #1 is viewed as being meaningfully better than #3 or #6 than #11, I expect there will be a lot of people here who will disagree.
Agree with @TheGreyKing that no expansion of IVL will likely to take place as it’s not interested in diluting its brand. The recommended “wiser course,” namely, “everyone to stop caring about the Ivy label,” however, isn’t likely to take place, either. The wisest course, IMHO, is to just let it be.
“Lots of people say LIE berry and NUKE yoo lar…” Yay for noticing, ha. Really.
The point some of us are making is an easy one. Despite a moniker that reflects an old point of history, use of the term has evolved, as, “Gosh, darn it,” usage does. “Ivy League” certainly connotes more than some not-that-great sports group, today. Right? We see it?
Except that I hope this evolution never excuses liberry and nukeyoular. Ha.
If the Ivy League was about sports, it would be as prestigious as the Mid-American Conference.
“The wiser course is for everyone to stop caring about the Ivy label per se.”
Bahahahaha. Good one. Like that would ever happen.
Increasingly I’ve seen the “Ivy +” moniker tossed around. With the plus schools often being MIT, Stanford, Duke, Chicago.