Based on my experience, I wouldn’t read too much into the athletes’ rebellion against their coach’s instructions. Lots of athletes despise their coaches, and often for good reason.
Having said that, I wouldn’t be surprised if the upperclassmen had a difficult time with the change to a new coach. That is pretty common too.
I feel quite comfortable in saying that it is morally wrong for upperclassmen to urge, suggest, demand, or require underclassmen to do these things as an initiation ritual. They are degrading and humiliating. I note in passing that you mention loud music, but omit the stuff about dismembering members of the women’s swimming team. Perhaps that just seems fanciful to you?
No, I just forgot about it.
Kyle actually graduated in May from UVa. He is starting grad school at Michigan (at Ross) so must have a year of eligibility left since he did not compete for UVa during the 2014-15 season (whether by choice or because the coaches did not want him to).
Bay, there has to be more to this complaint…because I agree, while at best it’s juvenile and at worst harassment that may or may not meet the legal challenge. Maybe there’s nothing more, maybe the lawyer is just “hoping” that a jury (if it gets that far and isn’t dismissed or settled) would be grossed out enough to favor the complainant.
I still think this a revenge suit…maybe there’s a monetary component to it if Marcantonio didn’t get parity with Northwestern, but if it was about the coach, the NCAA or the college that is who would be sued. If this was about changing the “culture” of UVa then again he’s suing the wrong people…so it’s got to be about revenge which I’ve thought since Day 1 of this thread. He’s absolutely got the “right” to do this, but he’s also got the burden of proof.
I
bay, you disagree with hunt?
"Also, setting aside anything that transpired that may have been unlawful (like serving alcohol to minors), people are being morally judgmental about activity that is neutral. An elephant walk, defecating in a bucket, yelling and playing loud music, are things people choose to do. You may not like them, but it doesn’t make them “wrong.” "
Seriously? If your kid said his roommate routinely grabbed your kid’s private area, went to the bathroom in a bucket, yelled loudly and played loud music, you’d have your kid on the phone to housing within a minute, right?
I’m actually sympathetic to the idea that there can be harmless and fun initiation rituals, even some that might be a little embarrassing but are essentially benign. But it appears to me that there can be an escalation and that they can become increasingly cruel and humiliating. Secrecy allows that to happen.
I think the activities should not have taken place because they violated the school’s conduct policy. I don’t really care whether seniors ask freshmen to do anything that is not illegal.
You are describing a different scenario. If my kid and his roommate want to do an elephant walk around their room, I couldn’t care less. The other activities need to comply with dorm rules, because I won’t be happy if he gets kicked out and I lose money on his housing.
In my experience, team houses are usually private, off campus homes that are leased from year to year by members of the team. They are not campus housing.
Well, it’s not really my business, either, but I have no trouble calling what they did immoral. This is not even a difficult case (assuming the allegations in the complaint are true). As I said before, it shows a profound lack of character. On second thought, as a native Virginian, I do care that UVA seems to have lost its way so badly.
That’s fine, you are obviously entitled to your own moral high ground. No one would dispute that.
And anybody who wants to defend their actions is entitled to the low moral ground. Of course, I can’t tell if you’re actually defending them or not.
I think alot that happened is/was immoral or if not immoral in genuinely poor taste, but probably not in violation of federal laws, which is probably why the district courts took a pass. I certainly think yuck about most of what has been reported. But supposedly the ring leaders were punished for violating the team code or some code at the college and how the federal court will look at this is another animal, but still alot of it, while yuck is probably not criminal and personally I don’t particularly care what people do of their own free will. Stupid people do stupid things all day every day and so far there has been nothing that endangered lives reported. We had a helmet law for motorcycle riders in Michigan, we don’t anymore. Darwin’s law instead of motorcycle law I guess is what voters wanted. So who knows what the motivation of Mr. Marcantonio is, maybe all 6 minus the missing 1 will swim better than they ever have in their lives because they are majorly PO-ed at each other or maybe the judge will read the complaint, roll his eyeballs and dismiss the whole hot mess if he can’t get them to settle during pre-trial.
If the question is would I engage in those activities, the answer is no because they do not appeal to me. Not because I am morally superior to the men involved.
I thought I was a social libertarian. These 5 guys are pushing it. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is fine with me as long as the actions are legal and they aren’t hurting anybody.
Guys bent over and then Defecation into a bucket? That might be a little too much for me.
If there is coercion, even if it is implied…“This is a tradition” for example, there is no consent. I have a problem with no consent.
We have a parent or two of the 5 swimmers who kind of admitted stuff happened. They obviously hadn’t talked to lawyers before making those comments. I like those initial reactions because the initial reactions are usually the truth. We are going to get spin soon.
When I want to know something from somebody, when I ask him a question or tell him something, I look right at him, right before I talk. I want to see those eyes, the nose, the mouth. when I ask or tell him something.
There are tells.
The parents comments before the lawyers have gotten to them are tells.
That’s a good point Bay…maybe the word isn’t immoral maybe the right word is crude.
Call me cynical but I am not sure about. We have seen too many examples of coaches in too many sports who would put the devil on their team if they thought it would help them win.
Does it matter though TV4caster? The only one who has a problem with those guys is going to be at a different uni. So Michigan picks up 2 upperclassmen swimming a stroke Michigan wasn’t terribly deep with swimmers. To me, it’s a win for Michigan and a win for Northwestern, the loser is UVa. Different groups of people get along differently. You can have an under performing outlier on a team, any kind of team, who, once put together with a different group performs magnificently. It’s risky, but if I was the Michigan coach I would have taken that risk no problem. If anything, the Northwestern coach would be more nervous given the complainant’s law suit. It would be like hiring someone who had filed a discrimination suit against their former business…you’d always be alittle worried they’d do the same thing at “your” place. I’d put money that the newbie Michigan swimmers, being juniors and seniors, are going to be too busy adjusting to a new coach and a new school and new professors and new campus to “mess” with any of their new team-mates. Their focus is going to be swimming the very best they can to prove themselves and getting good enough grades and classes they need to graduate.
I can’t understand why anyone would even speculate about this unless they really think that any individual kid only deserves one chance in college in life and if they fail out or have a suspension or even get expelled it’s over and that’s not the way the merry-go-round spins. These kids have good grades, they took their suspensions like adults and they’ve moved on…don’t we tell that to failing kids just about every week on these forums - fix your crap, get your head screwed on and move on. Hopefully these guys have and hopefully the complainant can get his head around his new uni.
I don’t know if it is immoral, but it doesn’t really matter. These actions are not characteristic of a group I would want to be associated with or that I would desire my loved ones to be associated with. Bad actions don’t have to rise to the level of either illegality or immorality for me to think they are bad or unsavory or whatever word you want to use.
I’m all over high-spirited hijinks, I really am, and think it’s important to have a sense of humor over silly traditions. But some people are just pigs. It’s as simple as that. I know my son’s frat has likely done stuff I probably shouldn’t know about, but I’d be pretty grossed out if it sunk to those levels.
Second chances are fine but Michigan took these guys because they can swim.
I don’t think Northwestern is concerned about the accuser. I don’t know if Michigan is concerned or not. Speculating on this is just projection.
I agree with pizzagirl’s post. I wouldn’t hang around the 5 guys.