"people are being morally judgmental about activity that is neutral. An elephant walk, defecating in a bucket, yelling and playing loud music, are things people choose to do. You may not like them, but it doesn’t make them “wrong.” "
Clearly these activities were chosen to degrade and disgust the new students. Playing the game of how much peer pressure can I exert on a new and likely insecure student to do humiliating, disgusting, and illegal things is hardly morally neutral. I am dismayed how many adults posting on this thread have a “boys will be boys” or “it’s tradition and you can’t argue with tradition” attitude. The fact that other kids claimed to have enjoyed being the targets of abuse during the “welcome week” just shows how strong the peer pressure–and the desire of these young men not to let anything jeopardize their college swimming career–is. I wonder how many of them shared with their parents what was going on. I would bet they were so humiliated and probably didn’t want worry their parents, that they didn’t say anything. I see a lot of parallels in all of this to rape–victims reluctant to speak out, community blaming the victims (really there are people seriously suggesting that the problem lies with the abused swimmer who is suing?), and a general boys will be boys attitude so if you want to join a college swim team (…attend a frat party…) you should expect to be hazed (…raped…) and not complain when it happens.
Just to keep the facts straight, do we know that anyone actually defecated in a bucket? My recollection is that a guy told another guy to do it, but did he do it? It doesn’t really matter, but if he didn’t do it, it probably indicates that non-compliance didn’t result in him being killed or kicked off the team or ostracized, or anything like that.
Also, I’ve been meaning but forgetting to address HarvestMoon’s comment earlier, about the plaintiff not drinking alcohol, but being asked to drink milk and prune juice instead. That makes it sound like guys didn’t have to drink alcohol to be released from the bathroom. Did the plaintiff actually drink the juice and milk? Clarification on that point seems essential for the suit. Prune juice and milk are not usually considered a danger to one’s health and safety.
Finally, all of the first years were blind-folded during the elephant walk, right? So how does anyone know if anyone else participated? Either way, did the plaintiff participate? Did he grab another guy’s junk? Maybe HarvestMoon knows from the complaint.
I’m wondering how many of the abused were actually not adults. These are freshmen and about 10% of them are not 18. Is it not a crime for an adult to grab the “junk” of a minor?
The second chances argument trivializes the situation. It’s disingenuous to say that the things that these senior men supposedly did compares to a freshman that partied too hard and missed classes and got two Ds.
“it’s a win for Michigan :” But, if these guys were allegedly doing things that some might consider depraved, maybe this controversy will follow them to Michigan? Plus , now they are the focus of a lawsuit and all the distraction that may bring… I don’t know what the answer is- the defendants (and their parents ) probably felt they were punished enough by their suspension. The plaintiff (and /or his family) obviously want more punishment than that. The other first year guys and their parents may seem to think this is overblown and all the other kids have stayed with the team. But, I agree, as the mother of boys, that this could be something that has been overlooked way too long- the hazing, sexual undertone in lots of this stuff. We need to protect girls but our boys need protection too from some of these types of things.
I feel like people are breathless with self righteousness on this thread. I don’t recall anyone saying that what transpired was perfectly fine. People have varying degrees of reaction to the activity. Some have probably heard about stuff like this going on before and others are hearing it for the first time.
The issue is that some of us don’t understand how a parent can think that what supposedly happened is okay and should be written off as “boys will be boys”.
Bay, Pretty much every school these days is addressing this issue . There is research about this. Hazing is not a good thing. Minor , innocuous stuff to add to bonding, maybe. But there are degrees of this and if these allegations are true regarding these upperclassmen, they went way too far.
Not necessarily, they are the new guys on the team, they are nationally known swimmers and they’ve already been punished, but it really doesn’t matter does it? They have the pressure with the lawsuit hanging out there to keep their grades up and swim well. I don’t disagree that society is different today than it was thirty years ago and it’s important to tamp down these types of activities. I happen to have guys that i never worried too much about because they are really strong, physically and mentally and I’m one of the very few people that can say “jump” and they say “how high”…but even that has it’s limits I absolutely don’t believe in cutting young adults off at the knees if they don’t do things that meet our criminal standards, but I do believe that UVa did the “right thing” and I believe that they are all entitled to carry on their academic and swimming careers and have hopefully learned a very big lesson. We had a good dinner conversation yesterday with my son and two of his visiting college friends about this case and topic and they all thought the entire situation was stupid and gross but not criminal and they all said they would be very surprised if the freshman could have not participated if they felt that strongly. They knew exactly what the elephant walk was, but no one offered up that they had witnessed or heard of anyone doing it. I knew what it was just because it was around back in the day. They felt that the suspension should have been from the team, but not the uni. We still don’t know if the kids were suspended from the team or from the college I don’t think. I did learn what “slap the bag” is though…I learn something new (that i really never needed or wanted to know) every time I talk to young people!
@bay, we are sharing our opinions. We aren’t in a court room. There is a great post by BCclintonk in the Bill Cosby thread about this.
How many people here actually have the ‘junk’?
I think there are 4 men participating in this thread and they all think the behavior from the 5 guys, with what we think we know now, is disgusting.
Is there any man posting here that thinks somebody grabbing their genitals is ok?
@momofthreeboys and you don’t seem to think what happened is much of an issue or as big an issue as some of us guys think.
I think a few guys from my past would probably be ok with this behavior. They drank until they were blasted, took drugs until they couldn’t see straight, didn’t respect women too much, and their private parts would go into whatever hole that was accepting.
Most of the guys I know wouldn’t partake in these activities and would not find this behavior acceptable.
Jeez, dstark, everyone including you is responding as though everything described in the complaint happened exactly as described. For shame on you for speculating that this is an accurate portrayal and not giving the defendants a pass until trial.
@bay, I am not on a jury. I was on a jury. I was impartial. I was a good juror.
I really don’t care about this court decision. I hope there is justice whichever way the decision works out. If the behavior that has been mentioned is even close to accurate, the behavior is disgusting. I want that kind of behavior to stop. There is no excuse for it. Zero. I am a man. I know things. There is no excuse for this behavior.
As information comes out, I will reevaluate. I am always reevaluating.
Telling me the accuser can be the perpetrator is not information.
Telling me the accuser’s account is not a big deal is not information.
Looks like you care deeply how the legal system will work in this case. Great. I am not on the jury.I find the legal stuff very interesting. I had a court case run for 5 years. I may have another one in a few years. Hope not.
But I am not on the jury. If I couldn’t be impartial in a trial, I would recluse myself.
If I thought there was any chance I was going to be on a jury deciding one of these cases, I wouldn’t be speculating.
You are speculating too.
I am speculating. I am speculating that there was hazing or improper behavior. I look forward to hearing or reading what the 5 guys say.
I don’t know if it’s an issue since I’m not a guy, I can only react from my instincts and from what my boys tell me they think as I respect their opinions and it seems to me that guys seem more involved in bonding rituals, but I am never going to take sides with lack of information. I’ve already told you my son said no way would he have agreed to most of it though I’m guessing he would have laughed at the e-mail, drunk the alcohol or at least as much as he wanted and then punched someone’s lights out if they tried to grab his crotch. Do I think there was alcohol…Yes. Do I think they were forced to drink the alcohol…I don’t know, maybe he had to drink milk and prune juice. Do I think they played the elephant game…maybe…do i think they were forced or in a position where they could be injured…probably not but that’s as far as I am willing to go. The e-mails were juvenile and downright stupid but the snippet didn’t appear threatening to my eye. I feel sorry for the complainant as I’ve said and I hope he’s happy in his new place. I hope the team embraces him (figuratively of course) and he has a great three years or so. I already said the rest of them have been punished and should be able to get on with their lives, even if they lose and have to pay restitution because the suit continues to jury, they deserve to be in college and swimming at this point in time in my opinion.
Of course we know that we are only hearing one side. We are all commenting based upon our impressions of the press reports and what is in the complaint. What we do know is the content of the emails and I would certainly classify at least one of them as threatening - I posted the relevant portion earlier. Describing them as juvenile or silly in my view minimize the content. I think whoever authored them has psychological issues.
The complaint addresses the defecation as I wrote it in an earlier post – a first year was “told” to do that. It is not clear how much if any Marcantonio drank, although the complaint states he became more fearful when all the defendants were drunk and he thought they had lost control. It also states that “he told the defendants he did not drink” - what is not clear is whether that meant that night in the bathroom or that he simply doesn’t ever drink. The complaint goes on to state that for retribution they made him drink a gallon of milk and prune juice and he then threw up over the balcony as the defendants taunted him for doing so.
It is clear that he alleges that they were made to drink the alcohol that was in the bathroom. The complaint states that every so often during the hour one of the defendants would crack open the door and demand one of the empty bottles or containers.
The complaint is 30 pages and much more detailed than what I posted. The Swim House event went on for 5 hours so there is a lot of description of each activity. The last few pages address the second night which was just a sleep over in the UVA outdoor amphitheater where the “first years” had to save seats for the upperclassmen for an event that was taking place the next morning. Marcantonio did not seem to have a problem with it but the complaint focuses on another abusive email that was sent by the defendants with instructions for that evening.
@HasrvestMoon1, this was a two night event. Do you think the coach had no clue what was going on? Is this why the coach has not been sued? This behavior may have been going on for several years.
I do not think the coach knew. The only reason I say that is because the complaint alleges that when the “first years” left they were given old and dirty ties that had been used in years before and told they had to wear them around school. The complaint alleges that Marcantonio was meeting with his academic advisor later that week in an office near the coach’s office and one of the defendants interrupted and came in telling Marcantonio to give him the tie or take it off. Apparently if the coach saw the tie he would know what was going on.
I don’t think the coach was sued because I believe the purpose of the suit has nothing to do with UVA or the coach. Their son is not swimming for or attending UVA. They do not care about UVA at this point and quite frankly, I see nothing UVA could have done that would have prevented what took place that evening.
I absolutely don’t believe in cutting young adults off at the knees if they don’t do things that meet our criminal standards, but I do believe that UVa did the “right thing” and I believe that they are all entitled to carry on their academic and swimming careers and have hopefully learned a very big lesson. We had a good dinner conversation yesterday with my son and two of his visiting college friends about this case and topic and they all thought the entire situation was stupid and gross but not criminal and they all said they would be very surprised if the freshman could have not participated if they felt that strongly. They knew exactly what the elephant walk was, but no one offered up that they had witnessed or heard of anyone doing it. I knew what it was just because it was around back in the day. They felt that the suspension should have been from the team, but not the uni. We still don’t know if the kids were suspended from the team or from the college I don’t think. I did learn what “slap the bag” is though…I learn something new (that i really never needed or wanted to know) every time I talk to young people!