@HarvestMoon1, thanks.
This needs to be kept in perspective. Hunt made the statement that UVa “has lost its way.” He states he is from Virginia- but he did not go to UVa and neither did his children, and I don’t think he is currently a Virginia resident. Swimming at UVa is a non revenue sport and only has about 25 guys on the roster ( only about 6 of them Virginia guys). The undergraduate population is about 13 or 14,000 something so if a few swimmers do some stupid things , it is not cool but hardly what most kids are doing.
Um, sevmom, I hardly think Hunt’s comment is on the basis of this swim team allegation alone.
@sevmom UVA has been in the limelight quite a bit this past year for different reasons. Parents here were really worried for their kids safety during these challenging times. Many parents questioned whether they should let their children apply to UVA and there were some parents who would say “I won’t let my child attend this school.” I believe for some parents this news will only validate their decisions. Yes lots of kids apply to this school because it is their dream school and negative things can happen on any campus. But frankly all these events I find quite disturbing. Simply put I feel no student should be forced or pressured to do something they are not comfortable with. These incidents seem to overshadow the positive things happening at this school full of very bright students. Freshman students are more vulnerable because they want to liked and accepted and feel like they belong especially when they are away from. home for the first time.
This kind of behavior is also going on in at least some of the fraternities. But that’s the case at many colleges.
I agree that it has been a difficult year for UVa, the most difficult probably in its history. A perfect storm of sorts, the most damaging which was the Rolling Stone article. Once you put negative stuff out there, it tends to stick. That will probably be true of this with swimming as well.
Um, Pizzagirl, Hunt’s issue seemed to relate also to the character (or lack of) of who UVa was recruiting. I think the baseball guys showed a lot of character and won the CWS.
raclut, Only you and those you know can decide if you want your kids to apply to UVa.
You hear all kinds of stories about what’s happening on different college campuses.
But just because it is happening everywhere doesn’t necessarily make it right.
If the culture is that this is acceptable behavior then how can we change mindsets of students if these types of things have been going on for years. For example, I have never touched an alcoholic drink in my life because I never had felt the need to. I don’t get upset if others drink but it is something I am not interested in. What makes these initiation events fun? I don’t find these things enjoyable at all and if someone asked me to do something I didn’t want to do I wouldn’t do it. I feel there are other ways a team can bond without making anyone feel uncomfortable.
I’m from VA, my kid goes to UVA and I am not a big fan of the school. However…I have not been any more worried about her safety than I would be at any other school. I also believe that the kinds of things that have gone on this year are things that are going on at many other schools.
My other kid recently turned down UVA but it had nothing to do with any of the stuff that has gone on lately.
I don’t mean to imply that because it goes on at other schools it is ok. It’s not ok anywhere. But I think it’s somewhat hard to know how much these things are happening because most of the participants aren’t going to talk about it. Just like what goes on with hazing in frats. Every now and then someone talks or someone dies and then we hear. What fraction of hazing don’t we hear about? If the defendants are to be believed, this has been a “tradition” of the UVa men’s swim team for some time now. How long? Even if it just started 5 years ago, that would mean at least 40 or so kids have been abused in this small organization. And we heard about it from only one of them.
That’s why I think it is good that the parents of Marcantonio filed the lawsuit, whatever the results may be. Shining a light on these behaviors is the best way to get rid of them. The description of what the older swimmers forced the younger swimmers to do crosses a line and is pretty offensive, though I don’t know legally what boundaries are crossed. Traditions can change and need to. I hold the coach largely responsible as he clearly did not set proper expectations and likely looked the other way as these events unfolded. Also, I am surprised that no video of any of this has shown up in these cell phone days.
Hazing is, unfortunately, still too prevalent. Alfred University has done a lot of research on the subject. http://www.alfred.edu/sports_hazing/howmanystudents.cfm
I saw this on the Today Show this morning. A more innocuous form of hazing . http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/cardinals-send-rookies-to-starbucks-to-pick-up-order-070715
When I was growing up in Virginia, UVA was really put on a pedestal. The idea of the Honor Code. The Jeffersonian heritage. It’s true I didn’t go there, but I almost did. I always thought of it as a place that put an emphasis on good character. So I’m disturbed by these pieces of news from there. Maybe it never was any different from other colleges, and it’s just that it had an image that wasn’t real. If so, that’s too bad.
One other thought I had–just speculation–perhaps some of the first years didn’t object to the hazing because they’d been involved in hazing in high school, both as recipients and perpetrators. If so, it might have seem normal to them.
Hazing is a form of sanctioned bullying behavior. It absolutely serves no good, worthwhile purpose. All colleges and universities should ban it, and expel anyone who engages in it.
Yes, I do wonder, Hunt, what experiences some of these guys had in regards to hazing before they got to college. If it goes to trial, I would imagine some of that stuff will come out-the plaintiff’s perception of what went on as well as the perception of the other first year guys who did remain with the team. Also, it would be interesting to know the prior hazing experiences , both in high school and college, of the defendants .
And yes, at the end of the day, UVa is like any other college- mostly people of good character but occasional bad apples in the mix.
The Alfred University info is interesting. Here’s another page from there: http://www.alfred.edu/sports_hazing/initiationrites.cfm
I think this one does a good job of illustrating the slippery slope from acceptable, to questionable, to unacceptable activities. (I personally would have included branding as unacceptable rather than questionable, but line-drawing isn’t easy.)
@hunt, I would view tattooing, piercing and branding as unacceptable.
Great link.
There is no question that whatever took place violated university policy, and the athletes were disciplined for it. It was referred to the DA and no criminal charges were filed. End of that part of the story.
The rest of it is about whether one guy, the plaintiff, can collect money from five guys for what happened to him. The additional complaint details that HarvestMoon provided do not shine any additional light for me. One of the elements he needs to prove for his case is that the activity aimed at him was outrageous and outside the bounds of decency for a reasonable person in the same circumstances. The s*it bucket comment was not directed at him, nor was the dismemberment comment. I think his case is shaky if he told them he doesn’t drink alcohol, so they didn’t make him drink alcohol. It makes one question why he didn’t make it known that he didn’t want to engage in any of the behaviors, including stealing and the elephant walk.
The complaint throws in everything that happened that night because the plaintiff needs to create a feeling of outrage in its readers. From what I have read, emotional distress cases are not favored by the courts and are hard to prove. When I think about the evening, I try to take it out of the context of a team, and consider whether, if it was a group of guys playing poker who decided that the winner gets to tell everyone what to do for the next five hours, would I be outraged about what they did? I don’t think so, because none of it was new to me, including the idea that guys touch each others’ privates in joking manner. None of that is outrageous to me.
The emails are problematic on their face, but when one thinks about a reasonable person under the circumstances, that falls apart for me, too. I do not think it is reasonable for a new teammate to think that anything written in those welcome weekend emails was intended to injure him or could be interpreted to be true. Plus, as someone who lived life with a brother, father, son and husband, I know my sensibilities about certain words and conversations are much more tender than the average male that I am familiar with. I still balk when I hear the f-bomb.
Also from what I have read, he is going to have to show evidence for his damages. I don’t know whether transferring away is enough. He probably needs doctor bills, or evidence that he sought treatment, etc. Also the facts we know show that he waited two weeks before talking to his coach about it. I assume he was performing fine before that day.
I’m sure there are things I am missing or don’t know yet. But I am not convinced he can win this case based on what I know now.
All I can say, Bay, is that the defendants better pray for somebody like you on the jury. If they get somebody like me, they won’t fare very well.