<p>
Oh, that sounds nice. Say it again. ;)</p>
<p>I do have to admit though, it wouldn't work out. You are way too smart for me. And I'd embarrass the heck out of you at cocktail parties. :eek:</p>
<p>0.0 </p>
<p>(10 char)</p>
<p>Cur:</p>
<p>Do you know the lyrics of the Paul Anka song, Diana? Or are you too young to know who he was?</p>
<p>marite, of course I remember Paul Anka . I remember the song, but mostly his comeback.</p>
<p>Edit : O.K. I googled the lyrics to Diana. I can hear it in my head now , too. LOL.</p>
<p>I think that some people here really are missing the point on what others find so irksome about the USA today story. For me, it's not that the kid may or may not have had help from his father -- it is the pervasive sense of privilege and entitlement from a kid from a clearly advantaged background, together with the way his accomplishments up the ante for the vast majority of kids whose parents are not scientists and who don't come from high schools with mega-resources. </p>
<p>It is frustrating to read an article about how the poor kid didn't manage to get into Princeton when he's got a full ride at Duke. It doesn't matter what the kid's attitude is - the tenor of the article is that it is somehow surprising that he was rejected by Princeton. (Hence the discussion of the 1380 SATs, rightfully pointing out that based on the SAT scores alone, it is no surprise whatsoever that the kid didn't get into his top choice Ivy).</p>
<p>I remember this past April, a kid who was the son of immigrants, from a public school in Texas posted his dilemma -- he had been admitted at all 8 Ivies and he didn't know which one to choose because he hadn't visited any of them. What happened? Everyone jumped all over the kid for having the audacity to have applied to all 8 Ivies, much less without having done the pre-application east coast college tour that is apparently mandatory (in parents' eyes) for all elite college applicants. No one around here worried about the kid's feelings or the propriety of commenting adversely on whether he deserved admission, with his less-than-perfect SAT scores; on the contrary, he was considered fair game for criticism and roundly condemned for his arrogance. </p>
<p>I can't imagine any kid from either of my own kids' public high schools getting an Intel award -- there are no AP sciences offered, no AP math offered, and minimal supplies and equipment at the schools for science labs. I am sure that there is the occasional wunderkind who manages to put together research and win an Intel award despite the shortcomings of their cash-strapped public school district and indifferent parents.... but the USA today kid isn't one of them. That doesn't mean he isn't smart or that he doesn't deserve some credit for his accomplishments... but I think that elevation to USA Today superstar status is taking it too far. (And my beef is with the newspaper, not the kids -- it was painfully obvious to me that there was not a single African American or Hispanic face among the 20 "all stars"). </p>
<p>I think when it comes down to it the Ivies are still bastions of privilege, and the expectation that high school seniors earn adult-level accolades in order to qualify for admission is part of what keeps it that way. The deck is stacked in a way that allows the very affluent to acquire a set of credentials that simply is unrealistic and far out-of-reach for the vast majority of high school kids in our country. That the Ivies also pick and choose from applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds to meet their self-defined diversityquotient doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of kids -- whose families are neither disadvantaged nor well-to-do -- are left out of the loop. </p>
<p>It's not that it is impossible for such kids to get into Princeton -- on the contrary, it is possible -- but given the competitive advantage that comes with a privileged background, it is a lot tougher. So I for one am glad that at least one top college was able to say no to the kid who came to them in the glitzy package, in the same year they said yes to to the immigrant kid from the huge public high school in Texas.... not because I've got anything against the USA Today kid, but because I fail to see why it is that he should be the one who is entitled to "win" at every college he applies to. Yes he's smart; yes he's deserving -- but so are thousands of other kids who simply never had the chance to fly to Japan to meet with royalty.</p>
<p>Full tuition at Duke? This kid got some amazing results! No one should pity him!</p>
<p>"I remember this past April, a kid who was the son of immigrants, from a public school in Texas posted his dilemma -- he had been admitted at all 8 Ivies and he didn't know which one to choose because he hadn't visited any of them. What happened? Everyone jumped all over the kid for having the audacity to have applied to all 8 Ivies, much less without having done the pre-application east coast college tour that is apparently mandatory (in parents' eyes) for all elite college applicants. No one around here worried about the kid's feelings or the propriety of commenting adversely on whether he deserved admission, with his less-than-perfect SAT scores; on the contrary, he was considered fair game for criticism and roundly condemned for his arrogance. </p>
<p>"To be honest, this particular kid WAS pretty full of himself and not exactly "clueless child of immigrants" everybody pictured him. His numerous websites presented very american boy( raised in the US since early childhood) , whose favorite store is Fossil and whose web-diary is full of accounts of trips to the mall and dinners out. He also advertised his services( for a reasonable price) as an admissions advisor. :-) Appearances may be decieving. :-)</p>
<p>Calmom:</p>
<p>You have the right to feel irked, just as others have the right to read the story differently. </p>
<p>What is a kid who likes science, has a scientist father, has access to science lab to do? Pass up on all of these in the name of fairness because some kids in Appalachia do not have the same advantages?
Is knowledge going to be advanced if we all worry about whether we are raising the bar for others by our own accomplishments? Will it help other kids if we stop our own from studying abroad, taking college classes or AP classes because we know other kids do not have the same opportunities?</p>
<p>There used to be a statement: capitalism= unequal distribution of wealth; communism= equal distribution of poverty. I know which I prefer.</p>
<p>Calmom, here's the link to the thread about Tri (Tchiem) </p>
<p>I don't think that everyone was critical of the kid. This is what I wrote in my first post in that thread:</p>
<p>"I am not afraid to throw an occasional criticism, and especially in the case of students who decide to -seemingly- compose a list of applications based on the exact rankings. However, are we sure that this is what happened here? </p>
<p>First, let's look at his "mentors" and the guiding lights in his life? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Counselor Rec: I know my Counselor extensively. She's one of my personal heros; we have long after-school discussions from time to time. I've known her since ninth grade; although, my school has many, many students, I have always made time to talk to her. Her recommendation letter was superb--at least, in my opinion. She really highlighted a lot of my personality and character attributes while mentioning my passions and motivations as well.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Could it be that this GC saw him as the opportunity for a pet project? The student is ranked high but his other stats are not stratospheric. Could that mean that the school he attends is far from a Blue Ribbon one, and might be one of those giant Texas high schools that shines by its mediocrity? </p>
<p>Further, what was the role of his family? </p>
<p>
[quote]
A GLIMPSE
i'm guessing this will probably end up being another useless glimpse: nothing worthwhile to say about the plainest, most empty boy you've ever seen. he's a boy in a world lost beyond the blurring horizon; he's eighteen years old and roams cypress, texas where the sunsets bleed in twilight and the streets are all but daily acquaintances on summer-dominated seasons; he tries to escape from this vacant setting (but there's no exit.)
he enjoys: love letters, black and white photography, the sound of the rain hitting his window on lonely spring afternoons, unmetered poetry, old fashioned romantic comedies, hopeless romanticism, audrey hepburn, gazing at stars, midnight cafés that brim the lonely citylife; a citylife he might never truly understand but enjoys admiring anyway. </p>
<p>he remembers the faint paper-thin whispers of folklore of a land he used to know: a land of conical hats poking through vast open rice paddies, and female silhouettes blowing a traditional gown on urban asphalt, the fringes floating in mid air like silver-winged butterflies starving for something better. he is caught up in a dichotomy of two worlds, two cultures: vietnamese, and american. </p>
<p>he has two younger brothers, the jewels of his daily existence: david and frank. he lives under a shadow of a father, endlessly in pursuit of an american dream that may never solidify to existence, and a kalaidescopic mother, whose moods tremble like the vacilliating tides of the chaotic world she left behind. </p>
<p>he exists only through the reams of textbooks, and novels. when he reads about great legacies, or extraordinary wars, or surrealistic dream utopias, or chemical components of science, he escapes. that's the only way he can overcome this psychological warfare he is constantly surging to win against. he is curious. he is always asking questions. he wants to remember everything, but yet know nothing. he thinks it's better that way: to live in a life of short term polaroids, and half-written prose.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In the end, I see someone who has tried to please many people in his life, mostly by excelling at the tasks presented to him. He may now have the chance to find the ways to please himself for a change. However, it is no wonder that he had to turn to a pixelized world to find answers to an elusive quest. </p>
<p>I hope he finds the answer in his heart.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Born into a village of bicycle rickshaws overflowing with chrysanthemums and Vietnamese street vendors, and raised in a place where sunset often find itself a frequent backdrop to Texas highways, I am a child straddled between two cultures. I am an artist who finds delicacy in things often unnoticed, and beauty in black and white photography. I am the poet buried beneath the shade of a willow tree absorbing poignant words left behind by e.e. cummings or Sylvia Plath. </p>
<p>I am a thinker consumed by moments of self-philosophy in a field of dandelions. I am the bohemian stepping on the cracks of asphalt sidewalks in the metropolitan twilight--drawn to nothing but the neon-lit blur of moving vehicles. I am the architect of new ideas on the gently-swaying swing sets--plastered in front of a background of rustling autumn leaves. I am the shadow of a thinker sitting on an ancient fire escape--contemplating the significance of Baroque art and waiting for something more out of life.
[/quote]
"</p>
<p>and later "Forgive me for repeating this, but I do no understand WHY any of us want to fault Tri for having applied to the schools he did? Is there much difference between his story and the much heralded story of Lindseylujh -and a number of students who did extremely well in past years?"</p>
<p>Calmom, I understand some of your point of view, but I have to point out that your daughter is essentially attending an Ivy, given the relationship between Barnard and Columbia. My son's best friend is a student at Columbia, and comes from a lower income family of six kids. He certainly didn't have anyone helping him or doing anything other than encouraging him to reach high. He also scored above 1500 without any prep classes.</p>
<p>My husband and I are first generation college grads, and I'm a first generation American. The only advantages our kids have (which is a big one, I admit) is having a two parent home where education takes precedence over everything else. Yet my son was accepted at several Ivy schools. So I do take some exception to your idea that Ivy/selective schools are bastions of privilege. That may have been true a generation ago, but I don't think it is now.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have to point out that your daughter is essentially attending an Ivy, given the relationship between Barnard and Columbia
[/quote]
Try telling that to the people who post in the Columbia forum. ;)</p>
<p>SJmom, I am very grateful that my daughter got in to Barnard. I am also very cognizant of the fact that she probably would not have gotten into Barnard but for the fact that I financed two extended trips to Russia to study abroad, thus giving her something very distinctive on her application -- but also something that made her fit within the set of expectations for college applications that come with privilege. It happens that I'm a single parent without a lot of money, but my daughter decided to go to Russia the same year my son decided to take time off from college, so essentially I used the unexpended college tuition funds to pay for the trip. (It also happens that it is a lot cheaper to send a high school kid to study abroad for a semester or a year than to send a kid to college - but that's another story.)</p>
<p>Now I didn't do this to help my d. get into an elite college -- in fact, I felt at the time that because of the impact on her coursework, her decision to travel would ultimately limit her choices, and in many ways it did. (There were in fact specific colleges that she could not apply to because she did not have the high school math & science required to meet their minimum requirements). But the point is, my daughter is not privileged, but in high school she did something that cost a lot of money and so bears the stamp of privilege. And in a college admissions game where those things rack up points, that gave her something of an advantage over kids whose parents could never afford to finance such an adventure. </p>
<p>Barnard is a college that has a lot of very affluent, privileged students. The local advising session for admitted students was packed with students from the most expensive, elite private schools in our area. The kids introduced themselves and identified their schools, and there was only one other girl from a public school. Most of the overheard chatter and snippets of conversations we heard concerning summer plans involved discussions of vacationing on the Riviera; my d. spent most of the summer working in a retail store. </p>
<p>So again I am grateful that she has this opportunity, but it is going to be a very, very different world than the one she experienced in elementary and high school, in terms of the balance between rich & poor.</p>
<p>Calmom:</p>
<p>However your D's trip to Russia was financedm the fact that she did go has upped the antes for other applicants. Would you rather she had not gone?</p>
<p>So the USA Team kid had access to a lab. Should he have passed up the opportunity to work there?</p>
<p>I really don't get it.</p>
<p>I don't have a problem with the USA Today kid doing the research. I have a problem with the concept that somehow that means he should have been some sort of automatic shoe in for Princeton. It's an achievement, but it isn't all that special when considered in the context of the material advantages he started with. </p>
<p>I'm glad my d's going to Russia seems to have given her a leg up in the college admissions process, but you don't see me posting here griping because Brown and Brandeis turned her down. She had a lot of weaknesses in her record -- I would expect that many colleges would turn her down. </p>
<p>That's all we've been saying about the SAT score: I think that it is reasonable for a kid with a 1380 SAT to expect that he very likely will be turned down by an Ivy. That doesn't mean he shouldn't apply -- my d. applied with SATs that were barely above 1200 (though she didn't submit them) -- but again... it shouldn't be that much of a surprise when the thin envelope arrives. It certainly doesn't merit a news article being written about it.</p>
<p>I don't see anywhere in the article or in the discussion that he should have been an automatic shoo-in for Princeton. Again, we must be reading that articllve very differently. He did not even express surprise, nor did his parents. Disappointment? Yes, of course. Princeton had been his dream school. But assumption that he should have been an auto-admit? Nope, I don't see it.</p>
<p>Lots of articles get written about kids that get into Harvard (just go over to the Harvard Forum). USA Today decided to profile one of its winners. Whether or not it was a wise decision has nothing to do so with what has been discussed so far.</p>
<p>Your gripe was about the kid having advantages that raised the bar for everyone else. I pointed out that your D's achievement did the same.</p>
<p>My gripe is about the kid having advantages that raise the bar for everyone else together with the USA Today making a big deal over his accomplishments and focusing on the fact that he was turned down by Princeton. That was essentially the whole focus of the article -- why even mention Princeton? Why should anyone care what colleges and individual student applies to and doesn't get into? What makes this kid so special that it is newsworthy that he doesn't get accepted to every single one of the 12 colleges he applied to?</p>
<p>I didn't see this kid surprised or expecting Princeton to admit him. And no, there is nothing so surprising about his results. I don't think it truly merits a news story. The thing is, people like all of us on CC are not surprised by the rejection at a place like Princeton. But the general public who sees a top student or even a winner of the USA Today academic all star thing, come to assume a kid like that can go anywhere he wants. Heck, I see lots of people on CC who apply to all 8 Ivies and think being a good student is a ticket in. I don't think this kid saw it that way, but that the public can at least come to see that even qualified types get turned away. It isn't news to us who follow the college admissions process but it is to some others. I don't think it really was newsworthy but more like a follow up piece on a kid who had won an award from that paper, chronocling what happened next. </p>
<p>Calmom, yes, elite colleges have many students from privileged backgrounds but not all students are. For my kids, I admit the contrast with the overall student population at their colleges is WAY different than the one they attended their rural public school with. But not everyone at a selective college is rich and privileged. Mine are on financial aid and so are yours and many others. By the way, two sisters from our town have been recent graduates of Barnard, on financial aid I am SURE (four kids in family, divorced, live with mom who directs a little day care center). They are dancers, like your daughter. </p>
<p>I agree with Marite that kids who have access to opportunities, such as a parent who works in their field of interest, or some other opportunity, should be able to take advantage of that. Kids come from all sorts of backgrounds and exposure to opportunities. I don't feel badly at all if my kids had less in some areas than others. And compared to some of their home friends, they had more. It is all relative. They did all right with college admissions. I don't begrudge the kids like the boy in the article at all. I also agree with you that he wasn't so special or unusual. However, I think he surely was a solid candidate for selective schools, given the little bit we were told in the article.</p>
<p>One of the sentiments that regularly gets strong negative responses on this forum is the notion of having a "dream" school, particularly when that school is an ivy. This seems to be because 1) it implies that the student perceives themselves as worthy, which, in turn, is viewed as arrogance and 2) admission to such schools is such a long shot that it is perceived as kind of ridiculous and unrealistic. 3) the assumption is made that the desire is not based on the school's attributes but rather on a primary desire for prestige.
Since both my kids had such dream schools, I do not find this off-putting. In fact, I can understand this student's initial disappointment. And clearly, happily, and healthfully, once attaining admission to Duke, his notion of "dream school" altered accordingly.</p>
<p>Donemom:</p>
<p>Actually, I have cautioned against becoming too attached to a particular school, not because of the connotations you describe, but because of the possibility of being disappointed. But the kid in the article is like thousands of other high-schoolers in having a dream school. And, like most of them, he got over his disappointment and is happy to be heading toward Duke.</p>
<p>Yeah, I think USA Today meant to give the general public a good reality check, but ultimately wasted the effort. It's too bad. People who haven't sent a child to college recently have no idea what it's like today. And there's no telling them; they just figure you don't know what you're talking about.</p>
<p>Marite: here's the thing: in theory, it's good advice not to get too attached to something that's a long shot. But that doesn't mean that we can prevent our kids (or anyone, for that matter) from wanting certain things badly. We all would like to protect our kids from disappointment, of course. But the truth is, disappointment is part of life, and the vast majority of kids are very adaptable---most will end of loving their school and feeling that things worked out exactly as they should have.</p>