Family Gets Lesson in Admissions

Parents Forum
601

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Spectator, since you're insisting on discussing and evaluating my posts, I'll return the favor.

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<p>Xiggi -- why are you getting so touchy about this? I thought that is what this "discussion forum" is all about. You do exactly the same to the others on this forum, frequently disagreeing with and evaluating their posts. Your response appears to imply that what is "good for the goose is NOT good for the gander". </p>

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I believe that your comment about the timely availability of the ranking information, as well as your comments about the AP and IB programs show a lacking and imprecise knowledge of the finer details of the admission's process.

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<p>So please enlighen me (and others). You level a broad charge but did not support your statement with any rebuttal or argument. What precisely are these "finer details" of the admissions process? I postulated a possible explanation (esp. regarding schools views of IB and AP) -- nothing more, nothing less. If you can provide a cogent universal rebuttal of the postuate then I am not beyond admitting my misunderstanding, but simply claiming I evidence "a lacking and imprecise knowledge..." is not a worthy argument.</p>

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Most everyone on College Confidential is aware of the questions asked in the School Report in the Common Application, or in the precise form of Princeton.

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<p>As am I.</p>

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Inasmuch as some schools try to play games--including naming multiple valedictorians....

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<p>Xiggi -- Based on your earlier posts I trust you are aiming this remark at Fairfax County. You are missing the point, and I fail to see how naming multiple valedictorians is "playing games" or "vexing the schools". These valdictorians are not named until the final couple of weeks of school, based on all grades (unlike some school systems apparently) -- THUS this has no impact on the admission process which occurred months earlier. Perhaps it is playing games with some future job resume but not in the applicatioin process we have been discussing. </p>

<p>I think from my perspective that naming a valedictorian in the beginning of the 7th Semester and keeping is "fixed" for the year (if I remember a previous post correctly) if far more vexing because it totally ignors the well known phenomenum of "senioritus". </p>

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So, in the case of your favorite applicant, hiding the shared rank or not reporting the rank would have equally backfired.

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<p>That may well be true, but that is certainly no fault of the student.</p>

602

<p>I think that Xiggi was very clear. The schools are asked to provide specific info about class rank, including an indication as to how many others share that rank. If the college is that student A is #3 class of 150, with only 2 other students ranked the same or higher - then the college sees that the student is within the top 2%. If the college is told that student B is ranked #1 and that 44 others in a class of 400, then the college knows that the student is within the top 11%. If the college is not given any information about ranking at all, they will try their best to extrapolate based on whatever information they can discern.</p>

<p>When we read that student A is ranked #3 in class of 150 and that student B is #1 in a class of 400... it sure looks like B is the better student, so we might be puzzled as to why a college is accepting A over B. When we look at the data the college has, it is clear that, from the standpoint of class rank, A is the better student, even though B might be "valedictorian")</p>

<p>If Student C comes from a school that doesn't rank at all and doesn't provide the info to the colleges, then student C is not going to be evaluated by the same criteria as A or B. At some schools this might hurt -- for example, if a school uses an objective formula to calculate an academic index, Student C might lose points and fare worse than he would have with a specific rank. Other colleges might not care about rank so much and so it might no make much of a difference.</p>

603

<p>Tator,
You said this and it was wrong. </p>

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True, they can compare test scores but in general they do not even know (at the time of the admissions review) who will be the valdictorian, as this is not determined until months after the application review process.

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<p>Both calmom and I told you that you were wrong and why.


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<p>Here was my version </p>

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spectator, most colleges consider (and report val) as of the end of the 7th semester of high school.

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<p>Then , you wiggled and said </p>

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note to calmom
I must respectfully disagree. The colleges only get the data you are talking about IF the school provides a numercial class ranking (one of XXX, e.g.).

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<p>and</p>

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Cur -- see the note to calmom -- NOT ALL schools (including some very prestigious school systems) report class ranking during the application or mid-year report. Thus the colleges are working from an uneven playing field when trying to evaluate standing and GPA.

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<p>I said you wiggled.(Just look at your two posits. They are not even close. I mean I guess you'd say they are crackpipe close but that's all. Humor. Remember?)</p>

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and calmom's right. You are moving the target and claiming we missed. Stop wiggling. LOL.

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<p>And you had. </p>

<p>Oh and then you added this bit of humor which led to my funny post
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Nope, I'm not moving the target or wiggling. It is only the brandies or beers that make it appear so to you.

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<p>Anything else you need repeated or explained? ;)</p>

604

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I think that Xiggi was very clear. The schools are asked to provide specific info about class rank, including an indication as to how many others share that rank.

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<p>Calmom --- you are right that xiggi said that schools are ASKED to provide specific info about class rank. But that's not the point -- the point is that NOT ALL schools do that (as you note later in your post).</p>

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If the college is told that student B is ranked #1 and that 44 others in a class of 400....

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<p>But you are missing the point underlying your premise in this next section -- in Fairfax County the valedictorians are not designated until the end of the year, and no information is provided on this during the application process/admissions decision. </p>

<p>I totally understand the distinction you are pointing out and have no objection in general. What I have been objecting to is the characterization that the multiple valedictorian situation in Fairfax County somehow helps them and prejudices other students from across the country. Based on your examples I might argue that Fairfax, by not numerically ranking, may be doing a disservice to its top students if the rest of the country is numerically ranking.</p>

605

<p>cur --</p>

<p>I've re-read your post three times -- and I must be incredibly dense because I do not see the wiggling you are talking about.</p>

<p>What I said -- and which you claim apparently is untrue -- is that in some schools (read public school systems) the valdictorians are not designated until the end of the school year. They are not designated in time for use in the application process. Moreover, at least in Fairfax County's case, they do not numerically rank the students so you can't even infer a valedictorian from a ranking.</p>

<p>The fact that other schools, including those in Texas apparently, may use other methods for selecting and reporting class ranking and early valdictorian designation DOES NOT change the fact that one of the largest school systems in the country does not. I fail to see the wiggling in this at all.</p>

606

<p>Perhaps my last one was too cryptic -- let me try this approach cur.</p>

<p>"
[Quote]
Tator,
You said this and it was wrong.</p>

<p>True, they can compare test scores but in general they do not even know (at the time of the admissions review) who will be the valdictorian, as this is not determined until months after the application review process.

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<p>I'm sorry, but in Fairfax County no one -- not the students, not the teachers, not the administrators, not the counselors, not the parents -- know who is or will be the valdictorians until the final grades are computed at the end of the 8th Semester (or 16th Quarter in Fairfax's case). Bottom line -- valedictorians are not identified on the application because they are not known in Nov-January. </p>

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Both calmom and I told you that you were wrong and why.</p>

<p>Originally Posted by calmom
The colleges do know class rank as of the time of the initial application and as of the midyear report...

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<p>This illustrates why you and calmom are incorrect. The colleges DO NOT know the class rank from those school systems that do not report rank either in the initial School Report or the Mid-year Report -- such as Fairfax County. Without numerical class rank you cannot even begin to postulate who might be the valdictorian.</p>

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Here was my version</p>

<p>spectator, most colleges consider (and report val) as of the end of the 7th semester of high school.

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<p>Cur, here is where I think you assessment fails -- as I noted earlier not all systems report numercial rank or valdictorian status. Even if I were to grant that most schools designate validictorians and permanent class rank at the end of the 7th Semester it is not universal.</p>

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[Quote]
Then , you wiggled and said</p>

<p>note to calmom
I must respectfully disagree. The colleges only get the data you are talking about IF the school provides a numercial class ranking (one of XXX, e.g.).</p>

<p>and</p>

<p>Cur -- see the note to calmom -- NOT ALL schools (including some very prestigious school systems) report class ranking during the application or mid-year report. Thus the colleges are working from an uneven playing field when trying to evaluate standing and GPA.</p>

<p>I said you wiggled.(Just look at your two posits. They are not even close. I mean I guess you'd say they are crackpipe close but that's all. Humor. Remember?)

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<p>What in the world are you talking about cur -- these say essential the same thing. Where is the "wiggle"? </p>

<p>The same thing that I've said all along on this "sub-thread", namely:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Not every school system provides numerical class rank -- either at application time (School Report) or Mid-year Report. Fairfax County is one example -- though there are clearly many others because the Common App has a specific box to check if the school does not rank.</p></li>
<li><p>Not all valdictorians are designated at the end of the 7th Semester, and that in some cases they are designated only at the end of the 8th Semester, long after the applications are submitted and decisions rendered. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>QED</p>

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Anything else you need repeated or explained?

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<p>Nope -- I think I have clearly shown that your complaint that I "wiggled" is unfounded. I tried to make two simple points, points which in my view are not all that controversial and well supported by fact. Unless you can dispute the facts (particularly regarding Fairfax County public schools) I see no point in continuing this sub-thread.</p>

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The colleges DO NOT know the class rank from those school systems that do not report rank either in the initial School Report or the Mid-year Report

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And that is exactly why the "valedictorian" from Fairfax County with the 1380 SAT gets turned down by Princeton..... because all Princeton has to go by are the GPA's-- and Princeton extrapolates a 1380 to be the equivalent of a lower class rank than a 1500. </p>

<p>So that just proves Xiggi's point: the colleges are looking at data different from the way it was reported in USA Today.</p>

<p>Colleges don't care at all about "valedictorian". They care a LOT about class rank. 28% of colleges say that class rank is very important to their decisions. The less info the schools provide to the colleges, the more arbitrary and unpredictable the college decision becomes.</p>

<p>See:
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/education/05rank.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/education/05rank.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

608

<p>As mentioned before, FCPS does not calculate class rank. The valedictorians of FCPS schools are the ones with minimum GPA of 4.0. In terms of calculating one's GPA it is as follows:</p>

<p>Quarter Grades<br>
A 94–100<br>
B+ 90-93<br>
B 84-89<br>
C+ 80-83<br>
C 74-79<br>
D+ 70-73<br>
D 64-69<br>
F 0-63</p>

<p>Final Grade (Final Exam and all 4 quarters are averaged with equal weight)
A 4.0
B+ 3.5
B 3.0
C+ 2.5
C 2.0<br>
D+ 1.5
D 1.0
F 0</p>

<p>The only classes that are weighted with an extra .5 are APs and IBs and only if the student takes the AP/IB exam. Honors classes are not weighted.</p>

609

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<p>While they may not "do" class rank, most (if not all) high schools send a school profile/class profile with the high school transcript. One thing on this (in most cases) is the range of GPA's in the senior class. For example, it may say that unweighted GPA's are 2.0 to 4.0. If YOUR student has a 4.0, it would be pretty clear to the admissions folks that they are near the top of the class. Add to that the questions that most selective schools put on their application (e.g. what is this students GPA? How many students share that GPA?) and the class "rank" becomes even more clear.</p>

610

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And that is exactly why the "valedictorian" from Fairfax County with the 1380 SAT gets turned down by Princeton..... because all Princeton has to go by are the GPA's-- and Princeton extrapolates a 1380 to be the equivalent of a lower class rank than a 1500.

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<p>calcom -- Fascinating! Where did you find this startling information that THIS is "exactly" why the kid from Fairfax gets rejecteded down? You don't think it was because he was the 51st engineering candidate in a optimal class of 49? Or perhaps they had oversubscribed already from Northern VA even though he was a superior candidate than from other regions. I don't know and frankly neither do you what the reason was. So let it go at that and don't try to try and make a point on unsubstantiated data. The best you should say is that "perhaps that is why...." </p>

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So that just proves Xiggi's point: the colleges are looking at data different from the way it was reported in USA Today.

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<p>I think not. The USA Today was a snapshot chosen by s writer -- not the application. Princeton didn't review the data as presented by USA Today, but rather based on an application that had mountains of more information in it -- from SAT2's, to additional ECs, to recommendations, etc.</p>

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Colleges don't care at all about "valedictorian". They care a LOT about class rank. 28% of colleges say that class rank is very important to their decisions. The less info the schools provide to the colleges, the more arbitrary and unpredictable the college decision becomes.

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<p>Alas, something we DO agree on -- gosh, that rather scary don't you think?
:) LOL.</p>

611

<p>Thumper --</p>

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While they may not "do" class rank, most (if not all) high schools send a school profile/class profile with the high school transcript. One thing on this (in most cases) is the range of GPA's in the senior class. For example, it may say that unweighted GPA's are 2.0 to 4.0....

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<p>Precisely the point I tried to make in an earlier post -- you are correct. Many thanks.</p>

612

<p>While I can't get into the finer points of all the above posts.....</p>

<p>Even if valdictorian is not finalized until past college application time, there IS a class ranking (at least HERE) at the time of applications. So, the application was able to say, rank: 1 out of ____. How many share this rank? 0</p>

<p>While it could change later in senior year in time for graduation, perhaps, but there is a ranking that exists at the time of fall of senior year and at the time of mid year grade reports that must be sent to colleges. Perhaps who is val at graduation could change, but there is a ranking, just like there is a GPA at the time of apps and at the time of mid year grade reports...at least where I live.</p>

613

<p>Two observations if I may, based on how things done in my area.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>While the official naming of the val and sal at our high school is not done until April-ish, our students can submit transcripts in October (fall rank)-February(midterm rank on midterm report) with their current/up to the minute class rank. While it does happen that someone who is #1 in January can end up #2 or #3 by May, it seems-- to me anyway-- that an admissions committee can conclude that barring a catastrophe an applicant who is #1 at the midterm does stand a good chance of being val or at least sal at the end of the term. Don't they also conclude that most applicants will finish their current courseload with similar grades and offer admission before the final grades are given? </p></li>
<li><p>On class rank and how it plays in to applicant readiness: I read a very compelling article on the drawbacks of the Texas Top Ten Percent Rule. In very competitive schools in the more metropolitan areas (Austin/Houston/DallasFW) class rank can be extremely skewed. The example given was Austin Westlake, or maybe it was Southlake--at any rate there were 38 students one year with a perfect 4.0. They were all ranked #1. The 39th student with a 3.9 something er other was ranked #39 and ranked in the top 11% of the class.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>A class rank issue--again, with our high school--is that the ranks are calculated at the end of the year, and at the midterm. Seniors who are failing to the degree they will not graduate, those who drop out, move away, graduate early etc...are not removed from the class total until January midterm. This creates issues not for the val and sal, but for those trying to be magna or suma graduates, or stay in the top ten percent. In my son's class there were 914 students at the end of May of his junior year, which is what he reported to his schools in October on that transcript. By midterm there were 726. So before a top ten percent would extend down to student #91, by January it would only extend to student #72. That is a HUGE "bubble" to ride. While this school may be an extreme due to the large number of drops, it does happen.</p>

<p>Compare this to where my daughter attends. There are about 75 students in her class. The drop out rate in this high school was 0% for many years, last year they lost one student. However, top 10% is only seven students. There are probably ten to twelve that take all the advanced classes, and another ten to twelve that take some, or do extremely well in the regular curriculum and would be very successful in college. It is why students in the second quartile are named honor graduates. They have high A averages and are good students as well. </p>

<p>I guess my point is that a school that places the most emphasis on rank/val-sal in the application process is missing out on some very good applicants. A student that attends a school with similar issues to the examples I've given will not fare well in a cut and dried statistics based process.</p>

<p>Perhaps the best thing to do is to apply to some schools that can look at an application in a more in-depth manner, rather than try to shoehorn into another that must use stats to get the applications down to a reasonable number for further consideration. Or--know and accept at the outset that this is a known issue with that school.</p>

<p>I'd love to be a fly on the wall at one of the admissions round tables! The intangibles and subjective pieces of the application and how they are considered would be fascinating to watch.</p>

614

<p>I just want to throw this in:</p>

<p>Schools that claim vigorously that they don't rank, actually do. They just don't publish those ranks, even internally. When it comes to naming not just Vals, but often awards/scholarships from outside agencies & companies (through the school), believe me, they need ranks -- & particularly if there are several categories for those awards.</p>

<p>In smaller schools (i.e., not huge publics where a senior class might have 10-15% virtual ties), those ranks are usually precisely known by the following groups: faculty (who share such knowledge freely & openly among themselves), administration, & students. In my own high school senior class of >150, the student predictions of the top 10-15% were dead on accurate, & in order.</p>

<p>texastaximom, I love your post, and like you, I've often wanted to be that "fly on the wall" ! :)</p>

615

<p>soozievt -- </p>

<p>I really do value your posts, because they always seem to be balanced and objective. Moreover you include the "qualifiers" such as "..at least where I live." </p>

<p>Where you live therefore clearly does numerically rank (1 of X), and I mention be even so bold as to guess that the majority of schools may well do that also. However, Fairfax County does not. I was trying to point out to some of the posters that categorical statements are dangerous.</p>

<p>My hat's off to you. :)</p>

616

<p>texastaximom, </p>

<p>WOW! What an elegant post. You have precisely nailed the issues with ranking students. You, mariete, and soozievt are a "classy" triumvirate.</p>

617

<p>TExastaximom - you did good (as they say in Texas). Just to elaborate - all Austin I.S.D schools (Westlake is in the Eanes school district) choose their Vals and Sals using last quarter grades - so vals/sals don't know until after final exams if they will be giving the speech. AISD also uses percentage grades, so rank is finely tuned. 4.276 beats out a 4.275..... I don't ever remember hearing of individuals sharing a class rank, and I believe it is the same in the Eanes school district. I'm too lazy to look it up! ;)</p>

618

<p>I don't really understand why the Val/Sal thing is so important. So many elite colleges talk about how many Vals they reject, so it's not an auto-admit to most schools. I know that public U's probably count this for more, but the energy that goes into understanding this factor eludes me. This may be because it's not really talked about much at my son's school. There is a Val and a Sal of course, but they are not the only ones who are admitted to selective colleges. (The top 5 - 10% seem to do very well in admissions) Since most of us understand that admissions to private, selective colleges tends to be subjective and wholistic, it seems like the emphasis should be on essays and activities. I find this discussion interesting, but since we all agree that SAT's aren't the end-all of admissions, why would Val/Sal status be? I'm really not trying to be critical, I just don't understand the focus here.</p>

619

<p>;) Sorry , folks. Val matters , at least at one school it does. Not saying it should. Just that it does, and they proudly publish it. </p>

<p>UPenn-acceptance rates Class of 2009
Valedictorian 46% of valedictorians who apply are accepted
** then an 11 point drop**
Salutatorian 35%
then a 12 point drop
Other Top Five Percent 23%
then you fall off a cliff
Second Five Percent 9%</p>

<p>If you are number 1 in a class of 1000 , by these stats you have double the chance for admission than those students ranked 3-50.</p>

<p>BTW, you are twice as likely to be admitted as val than if your school doesn't rank. Something to think about.</p>

620

<p>sjmom:</p>

<p>I think that in the particular case that launched this thread, the val status was not such a big deal because it was shared with 40 other students; in other words, the student was not considered to be <em>that</em> outstanding.
Every system has its downside as has been amply illustrated by posters on this thread.
You are right, however, that top colleges do not care for val status per se, although they do use rank to evaluate GPA.</p>