<p>
[quote]
Recent high school graduate Elizabeth Moody is an anomaly.</p>
<p>For this 17-year-old, joining the Army Reserve was a rational decision, one she hopes provides her with the means to one day enter dental school. That specialty interest, she believes, makes it highly unlikely shell end up in combat, but rather on a large base if called to duty and deployed....
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Combine the situation in Iraq with the general lack of military service throughout most of our society and the lack of recommendations should come as no surprise. In that same vain I was talking to my 13 year old son about my oldest son (17) who is reporting to the Naval Academy next week as a member of the class of 2011. My 13 year old asked me if I was at all concerned about him, especially now that he was talking about his interest in looking at SEALS among other possible career choices. I replied that as a father I am certainly concerned, as no parent wants to see their child in a circumstance where they may be in harms way. I thought his response was remarkable both in its simplicity and substance; something that everyone should think about before they advise a young man or woman to pass on military service. </p>
<p>He said "dad, someone has to be a SEAL"</p>
<p>Quote for the article:</p>
<p>"The likelihood that an influential person such as a parent, grandparent, or teacher would recommend military service as of September had dropped to its lowest point since 2003 the year the Iraq war started, according to a Pentagon study."</p>
<p>Initially my sarcasm kicked in with a "Did they really need a Pentagon Study to determine that?" </p>
<p>Then my "make a lemon into lemonade" mindset kicked in. With a son intending to make a career in the military, the laws of supply and demand dictate that, if fewer people want to serve, his services should be in greater demand. Higher pay, bigger re-enlistment bonuses, and so on.</p>
<p>Maybe our kids will all be military millionaires some day!</p>
<p>H and I never questioned our S's desire to join the military. We encouraged it. Many others questioned it and thought we were crazy to be encouraging him.</p>
<p>As an immigrant and naturalized citizen, what an awesome honor and privilege to impart my patriotism to my children. No American should ever
fail to educate our children how the forefathers of this nation fought, won and kept the freedom for ALL those came and enjoying this great nation. You will never truly know how blessed we are unless we go abroad and see how others live. I wish all of our children want to serve in some form of military
obligation to help others and themselves with our(parents’) encouragement.</p>
<p>the 13 year old response reminded me of a tee shirt I saw a Marine in my older son's company wearing..... "I am someone's son."</p>
<p>It makes me terribly sad that the majority of adults do not support their children serving this country. I for one will have my 2 only children (both boys) serving. My older son is a Corpsman attached to a Marine unit deploying to Iraq, and my younger son is entering USMMA Class of 2011. If more parents supported our country the way they should, perhaps the plague of lazy, self-absorbed teenagers would disappear....ok off my soapbox now!</p>
<p>A few questions for the above poster.</p>
<p>You said that the majority of parents don't approve. Nowhere in the article does it say so. Most research opinion polls have always shown that the military has had higher approval ratings than the Congress and the President. The approval of the military may ebb lately because of the the rash actions of some in places like Gitmo, Abu Gharib, and Haditha, your statement doesn't hold water.</p>
<p>^^^^There were no questions for the above poster, Confused, only your statements coupled with your usual political rhetoric (yawn).</p>
<p>"Statistics show that positive views about joining the military among adults and older teens who are influential in such decisions has declined.</p>
<p>The likelihood that an influential person such as a parent, grandparent, or teacher would recommend military service as of September had dropped to its lowest point since 2003 — the year the Iraq war started, according to a Pentagon study."</p>
<p>**No, it doesn't state that the majority of parents don't approve, BUT, it does state that the likelihood of a population which includes parents has dropped, so it is possible to assume what suzannegra does. Statistics can be played both pro and con, so her statement CAN hold water. </p>
<p>Suzannegra- right there with you. Many prayers for your son the Corpsman and your younger one going to USMMA.</p>
<p>Now, I'm off of my soapbox and heading out to take my son to USNA (c/o 2011).</p>
<p>Her statement is nothing more than an ASSUMPTION that was used to make a diatribe.</p>
<p>Possibly</p>
<p>(Still, the pot calls the kettle black)</p>
<p>Decline for Military in Black Recruits </p>
<p>By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: June 24, 2007 </p>
<p>WASHINGTON (AP) -- The number of blacks joining the military has plunged by more than one-third since the Afghanistan and Iraq wars began. Other job prospects are soaring and relatives of potential recruits increasingly are discouraging them from joining the armed services. </p>
<p>According to data obtained by The Associated Press, the decline covers all four military services for active duty recruits. The drop is even more dramatic when National Guard and Reserve recruiting is included. </p>
<p>The findings reflect the growing unpopularity of the wars, particularly among family members and other adults who exert influence over high school and college students considering the military as a place to serve their country, further their education or build a career. </p>
<p>Walking past the Army recruiting station in downtown Washington, D.C., this past week, Sean Glover said he has done all he can to talk black relatives out of joining the military.
''I don't think it's a good time. I don't support the government's efforts here and abroad,'' said Glover, 36. ''There's other ways you can pay for college. There's other ways you can get your life together. Joining the Army, the military, comes at a very high price.'' </p>
<p>The message comes as no surprise to the Pentagon. At the Defense Department, efforts are under way to increase the size of the Army and Marine Corps so the country can better wage what the military believes will be a long battle against terrorism. </p>
<p>''The global war on terror has taken its toll, no question,'' said Curt Gilroy, the Pentagon's director of accession policy, in an Associated Press interview. </p>
<p>Marine Commandant Gen. James T. Conway agreed that the bloodshed in Iraq -- where more than 3,540 U.S. troops have died -- is the biggest deterrent for prospective recruits.
''The daily death toll that comes out is, I think, causing people who are the influencers of young men and women in America to take a second look,'' he said. ''So I think that's probably the single most dominant feature.'' </p>
<p>According to Pentagon data, there were nearly 51,500 new black recruits for active duty and reserves in 2001. That number fell to less than 32,000 in 2006, a 38 percent decline. When only active duty troops are counted, the number of black recruits went from more than 31,000 in 2002 to about 23,600 in 2006, almost one-quarter fewer. </p>
<p>The decline is particularly stark for the Army. Blacks represented about 23 percent of the active Army's enlisted recruits in 2000, but 12.4 percent in 2006. </p>
<p>The decline in black recruits overall has been offset partly by an increase in Hispanic recruits and those who classify themselves as other races or nationalities. This category could include people who consider themselves Portuguese, or of other European descent that are not covered by the main categories of white, Asian/Pacific Islander, American Indian/Alaskan, black or Hispanic. </p>
<p>The active duty services largely have met recruiting targets in the past two years, while the Army, Army National Guard and Air National Guard fell short of their goals last month. Sgt. Terry Wright, an Army recruiter in Tampa, Fla. said young people in the black community have more education and job opportunities now than when he joined the service 14 years ago. ''I go to high schools every day, and for the most part it strikes me how many of them are serious about going to college,'' said Wright, 32.
He acknowledged recruiters are spending more time with parents and other adults from whom potential recruits seek advice. In addition, he said recruiters are speaking more often to community and ethnic groups to encourage military service. </p>
<p>According to Conway, the Marine commandant, Marine recruiters ''used to spend four hours with the young recruit and four hours with those people that we would call the influencers: the parents, the pastors, the coaches, the teachers.'' Now, he said, they spend four hours with recruits and 14 hours with influencers. </p>
<p>Gilroy, the Pentagon official, said the improving economy is giving potential recruits more opportunities for better paying jobs outside the military. But he said the growing dissatisfaction with the war among black political and community leaders, as well as parents and teachers, is a major factor, too. </p>
<p>''The influencers of these youth have a larger effect on African-Americans,'' Gilroy said. ''Some have argued that, because of the makeup of African-American families and the relatively more significant roles (the families) play, moms have a greater influence on their families. And we know that moms, in general, do not support the war.'' </p>
<p>Citing high-profile black leaders such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton , Gilroy said, ''We hear greater criticism of this administration's policies and greater concerns about the effects of the war.'' He said it is up to the country's leaders, particularly members of Congress who have served in the military to ''talk about the nobility of service.'' </p>
<p>With detailed, color-coded graphs, the military can chart the erosion in support for the war among the adults who surround recruits of all ethnicities. A green line denoting the percentage of grandparents likely to recommend military service shows the steepest drop -- from a high of 56 percent in mid-2004 to 34 percent last fall. Support is lowest among mothers. At the start of the war, 36 percent of moms would recommend military service; by last fall, it was 25 percent. </p>
<p>Sgt. Carlos Alvarez, a recruiting station commander in Tampa, Fla., said many minorities have strong family ties and winning over parents, grandparents and other relatives is critical when talking to potential recruits. ''If you don't have a good relationship with the parents, you're not going to go anywhere,'' he said. ''The kid might want to do it, but it's all about mom and dad.'' </p>
<p>Alvarez said it is not just high school students who turn to their parents for approval. Potential recruits in their late 20s will tell him, ''I need to speak to my mom.'' </p>
<p>Conway said Marine recruiters need to ''pump up the volume a little bit in terms of their recruiting efforts.'' </p>
<p>The military services, meanwhile, have created Internet sites that offer videos, downloads, interest tests and special pages for parents. ''You Made Them Strong. We'll Make Them Army Strong,'' says the headline on the Army's Web site for parents. It includes details on salaries, benefits, bonuses, education and training as well as stories about how a recruit made her decision to join and how one soldier deployed to war. </p>
<p>The Navy, Air Force and Marine recruiting sites offer similar information, often also in Spanish. Also available are personal stories and videos of service members. </p>
<p>''I've tasked our recruiters with ensuring that our minority percentages stay strong,'' Conway said. ''We just want to make sure that we continue to look like America in the Marine Corps.'' </p>
<p>At the same time, the military is opening the door to many recruits it has not welcomed in the past. That includes people who are a bit older; who score lower on aptitude tests; and who have medical conditions such as asthma or attention deficit disorders that can be controlled better now with medicine. </p>
<p>The Army, for example, increased its age limit for recruits from 35 to 42. </p>
<p>But the key, Gilroy said, is to continue to shore up recruiting budgets, particularly for the Army and Marine Corps, who are bearing the brunt of the service on the wars' front lines. </p>
<p>''Recruiting is at the heart of the volunteer force,'' said Gilroy. ''If we don't get recruiting right, nothing else matters.''</p>
<p>A draft is the only way we are going to be able to sustain long term military operations at current levels. We couldn't conduct WW2 without a draft, and that war had widespread support of the people, what makes us think we can do without one now? In the interim, extending age limits and expanding the role of women in the military only makes sense. The politics on both sides of this issue is only muddying the waters. An all volunteer force is a nice idea when you aren't conducting global large force ground operations. We have to get real. The administration made a critical mistake when it failed to ask the American People---all of them--- to be prepared to sacrifice right after 9/11. Instead we lay the whole problem at the feet of an all volunteer force that is JUST TOO SMALL for the mission we have given them.</p>
<p>"Ask not what your country can do for you...." seems to have gotten lost along the way.</p>
<p>Shogun,</p>
<p>Usually I refrain from voicing my opinion on these issues but I guess I'm overly sensitive this week as one of our troop's former scouts was recently killed in Iraq. While his death is tough enough to accept, the multitude of "What a waste" type of comments from fellow mourners really upset me. While I don't believe for a second his heroic sacrifice was a 'waste', I could definately tell I was part of a declining minority of opinion. </p>
<p>Shogun, you're right, as usual. Selfless duty to country has not only been lost during the last 4 decades, it's been publicly ridiculed by more and more of our citizens. The new motto seems to be: Sacrifice is for chumps! That's why the young people agreeing to serve their country are so special.</p>
<p>I concur that the U.S. lacks the necessary number of military personnel to sustain the current scope and level of military operations. However, I don't see much chance of the draft returning after being discontinued over 30 years ago. I suspect that parents who vehemently object to military recruiters addressing their children at school will be pretty nasty in their opposition to a military draft. Just a guess.</p>
<p>However, it may not be an issue for very long. I don't see our country continuing to commit to the current level of military operations for much longer. If my crystal ball is correct (quite an assumption if you ask my wife), we will significantly reduce our military presence in Iraq within the next two years and refrain from making significant new commitments of troop-intensive operations elsewhere. I believe that most Americans have been convinced (the cynical might say brainwashed) that "war is not the answer". Certainly not the personnel-intensive form of war that involves the loss of a significant number of American lives. </p>
<p>Why? Because the human, political and financial 'costs' of our current military commitments have been successfully (and endlessly) trumpeted by those individuals, groups and media outlets in opposition to war in general and the Iraq war in particular (certainly within their rights to do so). Meanwhile the people who believe that there have been, and continue to be, significant American and international short and long term 'benefits' of our military actions have been relatively ineffective in the presentation and promotion of their views. </p>
<p>For most people using the internet, television and newspaper as their primary sources of information, the Ben Franklin Decision-Making Technique of listing (and then comparing the quantity of) positives and negatives leads them to the conclusion that our war efforts in Iraq should be stopped. The daily barrage of deathcounts, bombings, and other war atrocities is rarely countered with an explanation of the short or long term benefits that could possibly justify these terrible costs of war.</p>
<p>While I may think their decision-making technique is flawed, it is what it is.</p>
<p>Where did Shogun say waste? Was it the same place in the article where it said majority? Talking about making up ***** to go on a diatribe.</p>
<p>As for your next paragraph, just because some wars are just, does not mean all wars are just. After WWII sand 9/11 and the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan many people enlisted. After the start of Vietnam and Iraq, enlistment rates went down. See a trend. I do. People do not want to SACRIFICE when they do not see it neccesary. </p>
<p>Many people object to military recruiters because of the way they target low-income youth while high-income neighborhoods are barely combed through. Don't get any ideas about playing the left-right card you can bet your Bible there's a strong correlation between wealth and what side of the political spectrum you are on. Those rich neighborhoods are also very Republican neighborhoods. Bush the draft-dodger is a nice example. (I know, Clinton was too, but you get the point).</p>
<p>Ah, War is not always the answer. What Monsters! Can't we hang them?</p>
<p>Those who have trumpeted against the war are no different from those who trumpeted for the war like the propoganda machine of Fox News. But the better side wins as the 2006 elections show.</p>
<p>On a side note, get off the Kool-Aid. Wasn't it always the left that was accused of trying to use the military for nation-building, social engineering, and genocide prevention. Wasn't it the right that was the pragmatic bunch that only believed in fighting when there was a clear and present danger to OUR LIVES? That doesn't hold water when it comes to Iraq. As Chris Rock said, If Saddam was so damn dangerous how come we took over the whole country in three god-damn weeks. You couldn't even take over Baltimore in 3 weeks.</p>
<p>Our son's teachers were "very disappointed" that he accepted a military academy appointment. They were very clear and very vocal on this point. His GT teacher actually said "What a waste. Why not accept Berkeley? Military people are so ... RIGID in their beliefs." (I was standing right there, so I know this is what she said). He was pretty disappointed in their reaction, and wondered if they realized that their rights were protected by those willing to serve. Oh well, he has now completed 3 of his 4 years at the Naval Academy and has come to expect the disdain of the many and the appreciation of the few.</p>
<p>Funny though, he went to a wedding where he had been invited to escort a member of the wedding party. He was asked in April, so he had time to plan and bring his choker whites as requested by his date (they also did Ring Dance together). Well, when he arrived in uniform, he was WAY overdressed (his contemporaries were wearing jeans and polos!!!???) and the MOST LIBERAL of his teachers (who was the mother of the bride) immediately glommed on to him and introduced him around as her former student. Then, above the protestations of the bride, she displaced the usher that was assigned HAD OUR SON ESCORT HER DOWN THE AISLE DURING THE CEREMONY! </p>
<p>I believe this is a fair representation of how America feels about the military and soldiers in general. People have no problem railing against the very idea of them but have no problem pressing them into service when they see fit. And, as our son did, they will rise to the occasion and serve with dignity and grace for those who rail against their very existance.</p>
<p>I don't understand, it wasn't clear from this 'tale'. Was the teacher that had your son escort the teacher that said he should have gone to Berkeley??</p>
<p>Nope. That particular quote was not from her. The Mother of the Bride, however, had espressed similar sentiments repeatedly, to my husband, who is her colleague at work. One of the guests at the wedding even expressed displeasure that our son would be there "because of what he represents." What would that be? Excellence? Courage, Honor and Commitment? A little bit of taste and awareness of the gravity of the social occasion? Who wears jeans and polos to a 6PM wedding? Whatever. </p>
<p>I was just trying to illustrate a sentiment among "Influential adults" that seems to be prevalent in our society; that our best and brightest are "too good" for military service. Well, Rationalwar, if it is truly "Rational War" that is desired, who is going to be in charge if not the best and brightest? </p>
<p>I don't understand, either, why 'tale' is set off. This is simply an illustrative anecdote that I thought appropriate in this thread due to the content. Just our experience, the experience of others may vary. ;)</p>
<p>Aspen,</p>
<p>I hear you, big time. My heart goes out to the young man killed in Iraq that you mentioned. Next week I am attending the dedication of a local post office to the son of two of our WP Parents Club members who was killed in Iraq in 2003, one month after getting married and not much more than a year after he proudly graduated from West Point. Today one of my employees, a young lady in her early 20's, received a call from a Lt. Col. informing her that her husband had been injured earlier today by an IED blast while he was conducting operations near Baghdad. Thankfully he was not injured severely and should fully recover. They were married a week before he left for Iraq.</p>
<p>These young men and women are putting their lives on the line because they love this country and are willing to do the hard things, regardless of all the political bull being slung around by those who do all the talking and usually little of the fighting. I contend there are no democrats or republicans, no conservatives or liberals in foxholes, or riding in humvees in Iraq. Only men and women who have devoted themselves to selfless duty for the good of our nation.</p>
<p>Rationalwar, whether you agree with the invasion of Iraq or not, the fact remains that the world is a very dangerous place. I truly believe that the majority of Americans support our military and want to see the nation rise up and defeat terrorism. Sometimes our policies make things worse, sometimes they make things better, sometimes its real hard to tell, but the reality is that America needs a strong military that can respond to the very real dangers that present themselves when we least expect them. When Aspen was talking about "waste" he wasn't referring to my comments but those of some people that he has overheard. I too hear those comments from time to time. Usually its not out of malice but out of the inability of many Americans to understand the difference between their "political views" and the very real sense of duty that service people and their families feel in time of war, regardless of politics at home.</p>
<p>Frankly, the best and brightest have always stepped forward to lead our nation's armed forces. Our cadet has received nothing but respect and admiration for what she is attempting to do with her life, both from our friends, acquaintences, and her teachers--- and we live in very "liberal" California. The "nuts" on both ends of the spectrum are not as numerous as both ends of the media would have us believe. We have only to convince our elected leaders that America does have the backbone to do what is needed--if only they would as well.</p>
<p>While his death is tough enough to accept, the multitude of "What a waste" type of comments from fellow mourners really upset me. While I don't believe for a second his heroic sacrifice was a 'waste', I could definately tell I was part of a declining minority of opinion. </p>
<p>Aspen,
You have always presented a reasoned voice in your postings throughout CC. [Since I don't know how to do the little excerpt in a shaded box thing, I wanted to make an observation about your comment.] I have re-read your comment several times. I don't understand your reaction.</p>
<p>How are you interpreting the "waste" comment?<br>
Isn't it possible that the loss of young people--the "best and the brightest"--in this war is a waste? Not necessarily that our children are wasting their time by being in the military but, rather, that their talents are being wasted in this particular war? That, at the end of the day, no significant [positive] change in the middle east will result from our continued presence in Iraq. [See Beirut circa 1983 for comparisons.] Therefore, the loss of life, at this point, is wasteful.</p>
<p>I don't think my son is wasting his talents by being in the Navy; on the other hand, I do think the loss of his life in connection with the Iraq war would be a terrible waste!</p>
<p>I suppose this is in the same vein of those who believe they can support the troops while not supporting the war. Which I think is entirely possible.</p>
<p>I am no kook who is looking to stir up an argument by misquoting or mischaracterising the statements of others. [See RationalWar] I have left the right, not quite all the way to the left, and come to a belief that nothing productive will come from how our foreign policy has been conducted in the last six/seven years. Perhaps this is the result of an easily manipulated President who was limited in his world exposure. Who knows? The damage has been done and I only hope that the course will be righted with this next election.</p>
<p>Rationalwar,</p>
<p>It's apparent we disagree on certain things and will likely continue to disagree. Such is life in America. While I doubt my posting qualifies as a diatribe (a bitter, abusive denounciation), yours probably comes closer. </p>
<p>On a side note, it concerns me that you rely on Chris Rock as a credible Iraq war analyst. Such is life in America.</p>