Film Programs: NYU vs. UChicago

College Majors Visual Arts and Film Majors
1

<p>Hey all! First time posting here on CC, have a bit of a dilemma I was hoping this great community would be able to help me out with!</p>

<p>So I'm currently a senior living in South Florida, and as an aspiring film director/screenwriter I applied to a few of the big ticket universities with reputable film programs, including USC, NYU Tisch, FSU, and the University of Chicago. Unfortunately, I was rejected from USC (I'll be appealing that decision just to see if they'll reconsider, unlikely but I'll take the chance!). However, I do have admissions from UChicago, NYU Tisch, and FSU. Given the 'prestige' of the first two universities, I'm stuck trying to decide between them.</p>

<p>I've received great financial aide from both institutions; UChicago is offering me $59.5k (scholarships, grants, etc.) out of their $63k cost of attendance, and NYU has offered me $53k out of their $66k cost of attendance. </p>

<p>What I'm hoping the community can help me out with is descriptions on the schools themselves with regard to their film programs, general education, and industry opportunities before/after graduation. Hopefully I can hear from some current/former students who can share their experiences with these institutions.</p>

<p>Basically, where I'm at now is that UChicago will probably offer me a much better holistic, liberal arts education (what with the Core), whereas NYU Tisch can offer me a great film school widely regarded to be in line with USC, along with internship opportunities in the city.</p>

<p>What school will offer me better employment opportunities? Is it true that NYU has a pretty bad student support structure compared to UChicago? Is the additional debt for NYU Tisch's film program worth it, or should I stick with a great liberal arts education in order to support my film dreams in the future?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance to all responses!! Sorry for the wall of text!</p>

<p>P.S. I am COMPLETELY aware of how difficult it is to get into the Hollywood film industry; I'm not expecting any hand-outs or opportunities to fall in my lap. Definitely willing to work extremely hard, as long as I know the work is worth doing...</p>

<p>tl;dr = Help me choose between Uchicago and NYU Tisch! =D</p>

2

<p>Being in New York City or Chicago puts you at a disadvantage relative to the LA-centric schools. NYU, Chapman, USC and UCLA are the big names in undergrad film education. The first question you need to answer is which area of filmmaking you want to enter after graduation. There are several discrete fields you have to consider; producing, screenwriting, directing and production (cinematography, lighting, sound, etc.).</p>

<p>If you want to get into production, going to college is a waste of time. Find yourself a good gaffer/DP and start working as a grip/camera assistant and work your way up.</p>

<p>If you want to go into producing, you can go to law school or start working with a film producer without having to study “producing” in any formal way.</p>

<p>Here’s my take on the remaining two options:</p>

<p>If you want to direct feature films for a living, the absolute two things that you ust have coming out of college is an award winning short film and a completed, ready-to-shoot feature script. You can do this at any of the major film schools, but being at USC or UCLA or Chapman means that you’ll have more studio people coming to watch your work and network with.</p>

<p>If you want to write, again, you do not need to go to a specific school for that. A good script is a good script and as long as you can get an agent, you’re set. Going to any of the major film schools will help you with this.</p>

<p>Now, this clearly puts UChicago at a disadvantage since there is no formal film producing/directing/screenwriting track. However, if you consider going to grad school for film and getting an MFA, then UChicago makes much more sense since you will be much better prepared in terms of familiarity with and knowledge of, “the human condition”, as it were. You will become intimately acquainted with the many of the parts of human culture, conflicts and drama that make life worth writing about.</p>

<p>Filmmaking comes down to telling stories. The basic narrative structure of telling stories and the format, whether three acts or five (which is a recent variant), hasn’t changed since the earliest Greek myths. Getting a Chicago education will prepare you extremely well for a productive career in filmmaking and screenwriting, but only if you look at the long term picture.</p>

<p>Short term, if you have no plans to pursue an MFA in film and want to get into the industry right after college, USC/Chapman would be the best. NYU after that and UChicago last.</p>

<p>If you do plan on getting an MFA in writing/directing at either USC, Columbia or NYU, then I would place UChicago at the top of that list.</p>

3

<p>Because you are in Florida (that’s where I was from), I know that you are looking down on FSU. But believe me when I say that FSU has a very prestigious film school. They don’t take too many people into film production (congrats!), but there is a big advantage: They hook you up with an FSU mentor in the industry to work with you throughout the process, and thus FSU makes not-quite-a-guarantee-but-fairly-assured promise that you will have a job. Within 12 months of graduating, almost 100% of their film school graduates are working in the industry. How can they do that? They only accept 20 freshmen a year into the production program (major congrats again!!), so each gets great attention. FSU is a GREAT choice, especially for you if finances are an issue.</p>

4

<p>Raul, I’d say your choice right now is between NYU and FSU. Been on these boards for quite some months now as D applies to film schools all over the country (she is still deciding between NYU and Chapman) but up until now, I have never heard anyone mention U Chicago and film school on the same page. What do they have – a critical studies program? When we researched film schools, we found that Northwestern has a decent program in critical film studies, but U Chicago, though an excellent school, never appeared on our list of film schools. Have you visited there and seen what they have to offer? I’d be interested to know.</p>

5

<p>Thanks all for such quick and informative replies!! </p>

<p>Digmedia, I should probably clarify: I was only accepted to FSU’s normal university, not their uber-prestigious film school… =[ As soon as I heard about it, the application deadline had passed by a week… But I do agree that they have an awesome program, especially with the Torchlight program where they’re placing students on actual Florida productions throughout the state.</p>

<p>ILoveUofC:</p>

<p>I appreciate your layout of the different education tracks according to specification. Right now, my passions/goals lay primarily in film direction, but I also like screenwriting. I definitely would prefer to direct movies that I have written (kind of a creative control type of thing) but I realize that those options will be relatively limited as I start out. You encompass my admiration with UChicago with, “…you will be much better prepared in terms of familiarity with and knowledge of, “the human condition”, as it were. You will become intimately acquainted with the many of the parts of human culture, conflicts and drama that make life worth writing about.” This, I feel, is the ultimate principle that guides the use of the Core education over there, and that makes it extremely attractive to me as a future filmmaker. </p>

<p>I like the idea of transferring into a masters program, but I feel that that wouldn’t be too time efficient, as I’d prefer to get ‘right in the thick of it’, as it were. One major drawback I have found with UChicago is that their film program is really only Cinema Studies, lots of theoretical and critical work. Not to say that I find that stuff pointless; on the contrary, it’s fascinating to me! But I’d much rather get an education on HOW to make good films, as opposed to studying the themes and symbolism of a particular film ad nauseam. </p>

<p>I want a practical film directing education that includes some critical studies classes, but UChicago seems to only offer the latter. NYU’s Kanbar institute seems to offer a healthy mix though, with some great internship opportunities to boot.</p>

6

<p>Raul3871,</p>

<p>Another thing to keep in mind is that if you’re going to work within the studio system, after your first feature, you will almost certainly be directing someone else’s script. The studio buys the rights to a screenplay and hires a director to execute that script into a feature film. It is extremely rare for a studio to bankroll a project where a filmmaker directs his/her own feature screenplay.</p>

<p>If you really want to write and direct your own projects, then you’re really looking at becoming an independent filmmaker (or “auteur”, in the French sense). The budgets that you’d be working with would typically be from a couple of million to $15-20 million for a film. The key to success in this world is finding a talented, creative producer who can put together the financing, pre-sales and distribution you need.</p>

<p>James Schamus is a great example of such a creative producer. He’s currently the head of Focus Films but he and Ang Lee started working together when Ang Lee was still a grad student at NYU. They’ve worked together almost their entire careers now and its very clear to see that neither of them would be where they are now without the other.</p>

<p>The traditional knock against people studying film production as an undergrad has been that it narrows down your career path to working crew for someone else. It’s very hard to become a successful filmmaker when you’ve spent most of your life studying the technical side of the business. </p>

<p>Kim Peirce, the director of “Boys Don’t Cry”, “Stop Loss” and the soon-to-be–shooting remake of “Carrie”, went to UChicago undergrad and Columbia U for her MFA. Her feeling is that the wide-ranging and intense core education she received at Chicago prepared her very well for her career as a filmmaker. Do you need a strong liberal arts background to write and direct films? Certainly not. But you must have a curiosity about people and life and possess the ability to transform these ideas into compelling stories.</p>

<p>Also, you should realize that above a certain budget, a director’s sole duty is to work with the talent (actors) and the DP/AD and producer. He/she will have very little need for technical expertise and doesn’t have to know the difference between a “redhead” and a “12K” light. That is the DP’s job and that is why he/she gets paid the big bucks (lol). As a film director, your sole duty is to execute the words in the script into a film that can be shown in theaters. It is about having vision, decision-making skills and the ability to communicate this vision to your actors and crew. You do not need a technical background for this.</p>

<p>That said, Michael Arndt, the writer of “Little Miss Sunshine” and “Toy Story 3”, did his film undergrad at NYU so there goes my theory about the efficacy of undergrad film degrees! But actually, Michael is a good case in point. After film school, he spent many years as the assistant to a well-known actor in NYC and basically spent 10 years working away in relative obscurity before finding success with “Little Miss Sunshine”. He could have gone to just about any good film school and learned the trade well enough to turn his talent into something tangible. Luckily, he had a good agent and took advantage of the opportunity when it came up.</p>

<p>As a side note, internships are really only important if you want to become a producer. If you want to write and direct, your main jobs will be 1) writing an amazing, original and compelling script 2) finding a talented producer who understands your vision and will take care of your financing and distribution needs.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>p.s. I think it’s also a very good idea to take some “directing actors” classes. This is not a typical acting class. A good “directing actors” class will teach you how to communicate with your actors and more importantly, how to make adjustments to their performance so you get the performances you want.</p>

7

<p>Just to note:</p>

<p>Both Nicholas Ray, the director of “Rebel Without a Cause” and Mike Nichols, the director of “The Graduate”, attended UChicago as undergrads before going into film.</p>

<p>Also, Bernard Sahlins and Paul Sills, both UChicago undergrads, started Second City improv comedy (and indirectly, Saturday Night Live!) so that’s gotta count for something.</p>

<p>That said, if you’re not ready to spend 4 years working your butt of on subjects that have little direct connection to film production, you should go to NYU. UChicago is like boot camp for the mind and only tangentially relevant to film directing, at first. </p>

<p>That said, there is a large theater presence at UChicago as well as the new Logan Arts Center, which may give you a chance to swim very freely through relatively fresh and unpopulated waters.</p>

8

<p>ILoveUofC, a thousand thanks to you and your contributions!! You’ve given me much to think about… Now, both schools only seem more attractive in their own right! XD Might I ask for some info on your personal background? Judging by the username, I’m pretty sure you went to/are currently attending UChicago. Do you have much industry experience, or just abundant knowledge of its inner workings?</p>

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<p>Raul3871,</p>

<p>Just pm’ed you --</p>

10

<p>Fascinating conversation on this thread. Thanks ILoveUofC for your insights. </p>

<p>I come from a Hollywood writing background and I think you cannot go wrong with either choice as well. The U of C choice will give you an incredible education, and in depth work in the humanities. It also will allow you to grow up for more years before you start turning everything you see into a film. Some 18 year olds have not been bullied about by life enough in that short time to have a really clear vision of what they want to say in their films. Then again, many do. ;)</p>

<p>If you are one of those who have a sharp point of view and are champing to get it onto film right now, NYU is the best choice. Not only will you be getting a strong UG education, you’ll be getting to make films (production based, not critical studies) and study with great filmmakers. But even better, you’ll be bonding with about 300 other film students in your class (about 1400 total UGs, I think) that breathe and think and love films like you. The chance to meet future collaborators, bounce ideas off them, work on their crews and have them work on yours is really priceless. The story about Ang Lee brings to mind how many of these chance friendships lead to creative gold. </p>

<p>One more thing–you should think about the campus environment that appeals to you the most. U of C is on a most gorgeous campus and feels like a college. NYU, not. It’s all urban and very cool, but if you’ve visited both schools you’ll see a clear difference in atmosphere. </p>

<p>Best of luck in your decision.</p>

11

<p>Raul3871 and madbean, </p>

<p>I’m glad I could add something to the dialogue here. I recently had a series of meetings with some people and I can’t begin to tell you just how big the TV drama market has become. The average budget for a one hour TV network drama is anywhere from $4 million to $6 million per show. And growing.</p>

<p>One of my friends is the head producer (which in TV parlance really means, “writer”) for one of the franchises and she is concentrating on the TV market now, not film. If a company can acquire a TV property that has the legs for a three year broadcast run and then syndication, the revenues from that show can generate BILLIONS of dollars over an extended length of time.</p>

<p>This is the reason why there is so much money going into TV at the moment. You’ve got a virtuous circle growing between increased revenues in TV which pays for top flight writing talent, which draws in top directing talent, actors and producers. What used to be a Hollywood talent pool based around the $15-$20 million film drama has largely shifted into TV work. </p>

<p>We’re entering a “golden age” in high quality TV programming and anyone going into film school now has to become familiar with the different pacing, format and time imperatives involved in making TV dramas.</p>

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<p>Raul: Congratulations on all your admissions! If studying film is your main objective, NYU wins hands down. If a great overall education is you main goal, Chicago is by far the better choice. Think hard about what means most to you: having a film production education, (with all the contacts and experience that comes with that) and a great education in all fields (which will give you a point of view and intelligence to make thoughtful movies). Then think hard about the finances. Money DOES matter, but so does pursuing the track you really want. I second madbean said about the campues. Having been to both, they are VERY different in terms of atmosphere, vibe and mindset of the students. If you have not visited both and can do so, I highly recommend that step before you decide. Finally, yes, you can work in the industry and work your way up, but it is very difficult to go from below the line jobs to above the line (director, producer etc…) See post by digmedia on this subject.
Please be sure to let us know of your decision!</p>

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<p>Hey all! Sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread. I just got back from an invitational overnight for prospective students at UChicago. What a great experience! I loved the campus, and the students/staff were very informative. Probably the most pertinent thing that I learned during my stay was the awesomeness of the new Logan Arts Center. Lots of resources for people into Film; they’ve got new cameras and editing rooms, really anything you need to get into a small, student-run production. It seems to me that although the courses are still very centered on providing an intellectual, critique-based cinema studies education, the university is trying to move towards more production-based courses, so this is a great relief to me!</p>

<p>Madbean, I second all your points. It really boils down to whether I want my ‘voice’ to mature a bit more, or jump right into the industry. </p>

<p>ILoveUofC, wouldn’t you say that working for a major TV company has its fair share of risk as well? I mean, time and time again I see a great show being pulled off the air because the network is only judging its performance on the flawed Nielsen ratings… I would hate to put my heart/soul/time/money into a show that doesn’t get a shot at a second season because it didn’t appeal to X number of people… =&lt;/p>

<p>Maddenmd, I wish I could visit both campuses!! As of now, I’m planning a potential trip for the coming weeks, but I need to make a decision by May 1st… =| </p>

<p>Thanks again for the responses!!</p>

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<p>Here’s a little story of two great film kids.</p>

<p>The two were best pals in HS, made a number of amazing student films, some got into festivals, a couple won big big awards. One (parents very savvy about entertainment biz) was dreaming of USC film school since young, was NMF, got into their SCA with NMF scholarship and has been soaring. His films are extraordinary! He feels he had an amazing experience/education/introduction to Hollywood VIPs. The other (father a movie producer) went to a terrific LAC back east. He got a very nice scholarship to attend, but no Film production major. His family, and he, were happy to have him out in the world getting four years of excellent college campus centered life/ strong humanities education. Last I heard, he was so happy with his choice as well. </p>

<p>From the ranks of Hollywood families who look at the sort of education that might make the most sense for their creative/talented and great student offspring, the camps really do divide. From that, I would take it that there is no one right answer. </p>

<p>You have a good choice to make. Go with your heart.</p>

15

<p>^___ Good post, madbean.</p>