Financial aid bitter

[azmomm]

<p>"No one wants to pay more for something than the next guy. It doesn’t matter whether you are rich or poor. If you are buying the same product you don’t want to have to pay 2-3 times what someone else is paying.</p>

<p>Do you get a discount when buying a house if you are low income? No.</p>

<p>Do you get a discount on air tickets if you are low income? No.</p>

<p>But we expect someone to be able to get a discount on education if they are poor. Probably because we expect that the poor will be able to leave poverty with education. "</p>

<p>Exactly!</p>

[SAY]

<p>Once again stop talking about the poor that is a straw man in this discussion. Everyone supports aid for the truly poor. Many of you seem to think that it’s just fine or too bad if families making 170k-300k(depending on circumstances) are effectively prevented from going to the top schools even if admitted. Meanwhile away from the top schools the even bigger scandal are all the mediocre students taking on debt far for nearly worthless degrees. The problem in both cases is the gov’t getting involved and providing what seems like easy money. Except that this debt never goes away and can’t be discharged. Gov’t money always means higher prices.</p>

[northeastmom]

<p>SAY, the only thing that I really disagree with in post #182 is that mediocre students attending schools that are away from the top are getting nearly worthless degrees. I see that 4 year degree today as needed to get many jobs and for many of them the employer might not even care if that degree is in art history, film studies, geology, etc.
If one looks at an occupation like education, most school districts do not pay more if the teacher got their degree from an Ivy, or a fourth tier state school.</p>

[BillyMc]

<p>

If one looks at an occupation like education, most school districts do not pay more if the teacher got their degree from an Ivy, or a fourth tier state school.

There was a woman who threw a big fit at my local community college because they wouldn’t hire her as an adjunct, but that they were hiring people from “lesser” schools. She went to Duke… and only had a Bachelor’s. She couldn’t get it through her head that that didn’t make her more qualified than the people with Master’s degrees from state schools.</p>

[MisterK]

<p>

@oldfort

The fact that so many middle class are not able to afford college tuition will create even more of “haves” and “have nots” in this country.

Agreed, and not just for the middle class. We’ve got a real college cost crisis here. Bubble prices are killing all of us.</p>

<p>

@oldfort

Plumbers and electricians will not be the next upper class in the US.

Agreed, and nobody is saying this. It seems to be your strawman.</p>

<p>My point is that within reason, people largely choose what they earn.</p>

[northeastmom]

<p>Glad that you understood the meaning behind my typo. As you know, BillyMc, I meant to say that they don’t pay more for the person holding a degree from an Ivy than they pay for someone to teach that has a degree from a 4 th tier school (as long as their experience working with young people is equal).</p>

[oldfort]

<p>Misterk

It’s been my privilege to know quite a few plumbers, and not one of them would roll out of bed for a trivial $50k/year - that would be unthinkable. That’s so ridiculously far below their normal income that it’s ludicrous to even talk about it. Any plumber with a clue needs a wheelbarrow to haul away the cash. That’s just the way it is.

</p>

<p>Did you not say that?

Any plumber with a clue needs a wheelbarrow to haul away the cash?

Now you are saying I am putting words in your mouth?</p>

<p>For many people 50K is not trivial. There are many posters who have said their relatives in the plumbing business do not make more than that, but you don’t seem to want to believe them.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Frankly if you’re paying someone more than $15 an hour for someone to clean your house and it takes them more than 4 hours…you are paying too much and your house is too big or your cleaning person is slower than a tortoise.

</p>

<p>Don’t you think the cost of a cleaning person varies dramatically by region?</p>

[cptofthehouse]

<p>There are some things you do get discounts for if you are low income. There are low income housing programs, for instance. Not for airline tickets; seems to me the well to do has a corner on that. There is such thing as a free lunch if you don’t have the funds. But most of us work to stay out of that. </p>

<p>Those who are low income have a much smaller pool of lottery tickets to hit it big. There is really too much focus on the rarity of the PELL eligible student getting a full ride at some college. Those rae rare birds indeed. I wouldn’t want those odds for my kids to be able to go to college.</p>

[BillyMc]

<p>

Those who are low income have a much smaller pool of lottery tickets to hit it big. There is really too much focus on the rarity of the PELL eligible student getting a full ride at some college. Those rae rare birds indeed. I wouldn’t want those odds for my kids to be able to go to college.

I’ve seen threads claiming that the poor/working class are so much more “lucky” than the upper-middle class because they can get financial aid. I feel like saying, “Want to trade?”</p>

[momofthreeboys]

<p>Probably, but $15 an hour is almost double minimum wage so I’m guessing it might be minimum wage some places and possibly $20 an hour somewhere that pays more than minimum wage…more than that and people are paying too much IMO YMMV. I’m guessing a national franchise company probably charges more. In our area you provide cleaning supplies and equipment so that might make a difference and most of them want to be able to do 2 houses while their kids are in school so you pay them for 4 hours, but generally they are in and out in under 4…they are like a contractor, you set a price and they come and go on their own terms. If they hit $50 an hour and do 2 houses a day 5 days a week for 50 weeks they’ve hit $100,000 a year which would be one smart cookie if he/she got someone to pay that. More power to them if they can get that.</p>

[SAY]

<p>NEmom I’m sure you know that the drop out rate away from the top schools is well over 50%. The real scandal are the for profit schools that use sales pressure tactics to convince gullible students that it’s a good idea to run up six figure debt for a degree that would be of equal value from a cc.</p>

[northeastmom]

<p>For profit schools is a whole big story of its own.</p>

<p>As far as other colleges, SAY, when one completes the fafasa it now lists the 6 year graduation rate for the schools that one picks to receive one’s fafsa (correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is the 6 year graduation rate that is listed). At least families are given that information (if they have not looked up the graduation rates by that point) so that they can go into debt with their eyes wide open.</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>So, are we down to this:</p>

<p>a) everyone except the most poor pays the same price- ? (whatever it is.)
We’d have to define what “the most poor” means- and that’s a whole 'nuther 100 worth of posts. And, since any family is paying for a roof over their heads, medical insurance, transportation and/or car insurance, food, utilities, medical/dental copays, etc, families either have the money left over or they don’t. </p>

<p>b) the poor, the middle class and the wealthy all get finaid.
After all, they are all paying for a roof over their heads, medical insurance, transportation and/or car insurance, food, utilities, medical/dental copays, etc. So, determines what support formula? Does everyone simply pay X percent of income? Say, 10%. So, the 60k folks pay 6k, the 120k families pay 12k and the 300k family pays 30k- ? </p>

<p>Or, should it be tiered differently? Perhaps proportionately? 60k pays 1 x 10% of income, 120k pays 2 x 10% and 300k pays 5 x 10%? Nope.</p>

<p>c) college costs nothing. Uh, but the rich are still paying larger taxes, so now they are, in effect, footing the bill for the poor and middle classes. </p>

<p>How do you all envision this working?</p>

[BillyMc]

<p>

So, are we down to this:</p>

<p>a) everyone except the most poor pays the same price- ? (whatever it is.)
We’d have to define what “the most poor” means- and that’s a whole 'nuther 100 worth of posts. And, since any family is paying for a roof over their heads, medical insurance, transportation and/or car insurance, food, utilities, medical/dental copays, etc, families either have the money left over or they don’t.</p>

<p>b) the poor, the middle class and the wealthy all get finaid.
After all, they are all paying for a roof over their heads, medical insurance, transportation and/or car insurance, food, utilities, medical/dental copays, etc. So, determines what support formula? Does everyone simply pay X percet of income? Say, 10%. So, the 60k folks pay 6k, the 120k families pay 12k and the 300k family pays 30k- ?</p>

<p>Or, should it be tiered differently? Perhaps proportionately? 60k pays 1 x 10% of income, 120k pays 2 x 10% and 300k pays 5 x 10%? Nope.</p>

<p>c) college costs nothing. Uh, but the rich are still paying larger taxes, so now they are, in effect, footing the bill for the poor and middle classes.</p>

<p>How do you all envision this working?

d.) College costs no money. There are no poor, there are no rich. Decadence and affluence are gone, but so are poverty and starvation and homelessness. Rather than greed and money, society is built on equality and human rights.</p>

<p>That’s a future I’d be willing to fight for.</p>

[MisterK]

<p>oldfort, I’ve explained the reason for the plumber (and other trade) examples repeatedly in this thread and in the other. I could scan them, quote them, and assemble them for you, but would you read them the second time around?</p>

<p>No, the upper class of tomorrow will not be filled with plumbers. It will be filled with the same types of people as it always is - some old money, and lots of folks who decide to go out, find a need, and work hard to fill it.</p>

<p>Stop oldfort! Don’t skip that paragraph! Go back and read it again!</p>

<p>No, the upper class of tomorrow will not be filled with plumbers. It will be filled with the same types of people as it always is - some old money, and lots of folks who decide to go out, find a need, and work hard to fill it.</p>

<p>There it is again! To misunderstand that point again would be “rediculous.”</p>

<p>It doesn’t matter whether it’s plumbing or entrepreneurship. There’s opportunity everywhere in this country.</p>

[MisterK]

<p>

@lookingforward

The people not getting FA but not rich are the actual alums of these elite colleges and they also pay a very large percentage of the taxes in America.

They are the actual alums of these colleges? Maybe they are plumbers.

</p>

<p>LOL In fact, the plumbers I know (of my generation and later) all do have solid quality college degrees. Not so for the plumbers of my father’s generation. But wow, those guys really did great as well.</p>

<p>Anyway, I don’t want to continue talking about the plumbers, because someone in this thread was lamenting that the plumbers in her family haven’t done very well. And frankly, this will just make her feel bad. The truth is that it’s not about plumbing, or any other field, but about the win/win of doing well by creating value, and delivering it to your customers.</p>

[momofthreeboys]

<p>^^I much prefer capitalism and the free market although my 90 year old father would enjoy your views as he is a Swede.</p>

[BillyMc]

<p>

^^I much prefer capitalism and the free market although my 90 year old father would enjoy your views as he is a Swede.

I prefer the one where people don’t starve to death, die because a massive corporation deemed them unfit for the paid privilege to life, freeze in the cold and burn in the heat for want of shelter, or otherwise suffer because resources are disproportionately concentrated in a decadent few. But each to their own, I guess.</p>

<p>In the past, I have complained about $50,000/$60,000 universities, but I change my mind; the focus should be on state colleges and universities. If someone can afford a private school through their own funds or financial aid, great. Personally, I think Christian schools should take some tips from their God in how to handle money/lifestyle, but that’s not what I’m talking about now. State colleges and universities should receive more funds (both for general university expenses and for research) and government should build a good network in which anything from a community college to the top state university is affordable to every citizen. It shouldn’t be about the name of a private school on your diploma, but rather the quality of your education and the skills and knowledge you take from it. By having the wide range of community colleges, traditional state colleges, state liberal arts colleges, state universities, and state flagship universities, all organized in a strong network with financial aid funded through the state, there should be an affordable option for everyone. Hey, such an overall invigoration of the system might even cause some privates to lower their prices, though that would just be an added benefit if it happened (and I doubt the big name schools would want to be seen as “cheap”)</p>

[SAY]

<p>lookingforward I think the point is that 250k in any big city is the upper middle class and these familes are much, much closer to the middle class than they are to the rich. These families know nothing of fancy vacations, second homes, or flying first class. They are the middle class who became educated and now have somewhat more money though most of it goes to help their children’s futures and svae for retirement.</p>