financial aids & Scholarships

Student Lounge International Students
1

<p>hey~~~~~
How'r ya doing all???
So... I am guessing that we are all applying to universities right now... right???? :p?</p>

<p>I was wondering what scholarships or financial aids that international student (specifically F2 students) could get...</p>

<p>I am applying to 4 universities (Brown, Stanford, USC, and Pomona College) and I have NO idea how my family and I will be able to pay 40k> tuition years... T-T (that is... if i get into any of them :( )</p>

<p>So... if you guys know anything about this... let me know!!!</p>

<p>thank you~ <3
Good luck everyone!</p>

2

<p>I believe that non of those colleges are needblind.
Since financial aid to intel's are tight, you'll just have to hope you're the lucky few....that is, if you applied for FA. Oh but I think that U of Southern Cali likes intels. Good luck wit applications.</p>

3

<p>even for those "need blind colleges", for international students, its not realli need blind at all. The vast majority of those who applied FA has either been rejected or deferred. I know one who asked FA for several safety colleges (for his stats) and got rejected for in 3 out of 5. He also got rejected by Northwestern (yes, asked for FA) with 4.2 GPA, 1490, decent EC's, and presumably gd recs. Well I dunno whether if northwestern is need blind but FA for internationals can be very tuff.</p>

4

<p>northwestern is not need blind for intls, in fact they have only started offering financial aid class of 2009 onwards. so it was impossible for him to be accepted at northwestern.</p>

5

<p>thnx for the info. But I am pretty certain that FA has a dramatic downward effect in chances for int`ls even for blind need.</p>

6

<p>tlqkf: ?!!!? what is it with this mentality!? </p>

<p>if the school says it's needblind for intls too, then things are clear, right? i mean i don't suppose you're saying that applying for fa at these schools (pton, yale, mit, caltech, colgate?) will do you any damage, right? sooo</p>

<p>if the schools aren't need blind for intl, of course fa will matter, and, true, sometimes quite a lot (stanford?), but "dramatic downward effect" sounds abit too generalization-like...</p>

<p>i think if a school isn't a declared need blind 4intls, then the course of action is to find out more about the statistics regarding intls admissions: some schools might not be needblind as a rule, but regardless of that might accept many intls, and some with scholarships!</p>

<p>Bottom line, get informed and do apply!</p>

7

<p>hehe.... i didnt mean to cause all this disruption...... :p
anywayz... thx for all the advices... I hope you guys do well in ur application, too (you guys are applying rite??? :-0</p>

8

<p>dramatic downward effect.. sorry. its just my misuse of language. </p>

<p>but I often hear from my friends and most koreans do agree that FA does affect yer chances even at need-blind schools. I dont have much knowledge about the issue and I apologise for generalising it and for misleading others.</p>

9

<p>i wouldnt say a DRAMATIC downward effect but I think it has some sort of effect. I'm not applying for FA even at needblind schools (maybe 1 or 2) because it's not like if they do not ever ever consider your FA requirement. They probably decide the results of an applicant without the consideration of the financial aid thing. But, when it comes to the end, they cant pick all intels who need full financial aid - it'll cost the school like a billion$$ (exaggeration). </p>

<p>That's only my opinion though so don't attack me.</p>

10

<p>If your prospective school has a Common Data Set (Cornell, Princeton, Dartmouth, Yale, Stanford) you can look up thier common data under the section of International Students. </p>

<p>Yale has a link which can connect you to the rest of them</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/oir/otherlinks.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/oir/otherlinks.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For example Dartmouth's 2004-2005 common data (for the class of 2008)</p>

<p>Dartmouth awarded an average of $31,134 to 147 international students for this school year.</p>

<p>All the best</p>

11

<p>Tlqkf and NoFX, you're right.</p>

<p>Colleges are, afterall, businesses.</p>

<p>They all want to make profit. Even if some of them do say they are need-blind, I would advise you that they can never be completely need-blind. Consider this scenario: Suppose two international students, who have similar stats and are very well-qualified, applies to the same "need-blind" college. However, one of them offers to pay the full cost of study, but the other asks for financial assistance. If you were an admission officer of that college, who would you admit if there were only one space left? Of course, you would admit the student who offers to pay for everything and deny the other who asks for financial aid.</p>

<p>The bottom line is: If you are an international asking for financial aid, you do have a rough battle for places whether the colleges you apply to are said to be "need-blind" or not need-blind. Financial circumstances can never be truly disregarded.</p>

<p>Another thing is that there are always quotas for internationals even if those colleges state so explicity or not. Therefore, interntionals face a lot more competition than Americans do in college admissions. They must compete among themselves for those few allotted places using their grades, personal qualities, and, of course, money.</p>

<p>I'm saying this because I want you guys to know what you are really facing. I used to compare myself to American kids, comparing my scores to each college's average SAT scores and thinking to myself, "Ha! No worry!" But, actually, competition for us is a lot more fiercer than that. "Need-blind" and "no quota" are simply icing atop the bitter truth behind their fancy websites.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
Colleges are, afterall, businesses [...] never be completely need-blind

[/quote]
</p>

<p>F U C K I N G S H I T, man!!!!</p>

<p>what does "need-blind" mean to you?!!!! I'll tell what it means: it means that adcoms never look through an applicant's financial aid papers... They don't even KNOW how much fa the applicant is asking for... GOD damn, where do all these accusations come from?! you are virtually saying that the colleges who are saying they are need-blind, are, in fact, lying !!!... it's unacceptable</p>

<p>i mean, come on!! how paranoic is that?!</p>

<p>i dislike ppl like you, who deliberatelly put things in a very bad light... I know a lot of applicants form romania, WITHOUT exceptional accomplishments (such as international awards, or excellence in a field or another) who made it, of course, asking for FULL FA. They had decent scores, very good grades, diverse and true ECs and good essays that underlined those special ECs or just v well crafted essays...</p>

<p>i think discouraging ppl is the worst thing to do, you're a troll!! :P
instead you could say how ppl can improve their chances, not start saying "Oh, colleges are all a bunch of liars, you intls will never make it... "</p>

<p>and how ****ing dramatic "icing atop the bitter truth behind their fancy websites". you man are frustated... get over it!</p>

13

<p>i *** strongly*** dislike your opinions, geniezclone... and i can't stress that enough... aaaah!! :mad::mad:</p>

<p><em>again, boils with anger</em></p>

14

<p>Here's my two cents:
Ok, from what I've read, whether or not one is asking for FA is taken into account even at "need-blind" colleges - It is a marginal factor, though. Although admission people don't know how much each applicant will cost the college, they do know that their institution can afford to pay only for as many internationals.
Therefore if Khalid Ben Laden (fictive name), or another guy from their family applies to Princeton, chances are he'll be better looked at by the adcoms, just because he means big bucks to Princeton. That alone won't get the guy in at any HYP, but the adcoms will be more lenient toward his stats.
If Boris Bronkowski from rural Macedonia (no offence to Macedonians) applies there, he'll have to battle all the other poor applicants from the developing world (like me and Pavalon). It's not like Princeton will make a special file for applicants from the 3rd World. It just that the adcoms actually get to see your background and wheteher or not you're applying for FA, although not how much you're asking for. There must be some bias towards rich applicants, because otherwise the University would go bankrupt.
Geniezclone, I think you are wrong when you say that Universities want to make a profit. At least not the top ones. While they may operate according to many sound business techniques, top universities have academic aims, rather than economic ones. Could you give me the profit Harvard made last year? I think not! I think you could list me the surplus or the defficit it incurred during the last fiscal year, which is quite normal for educational institutions.</p>

15

<p>Oh My God!</p>

<p>YOU are the one who puts my post in a VERY BAD LIGHT. Why do you think I took the time to type such a long post? Read carefully: "I'm saying this because I want you guys to know what you are really facing."</p>

<p>I KNOW what need-blind means, and I'm telling you not to believe everything you see.</p>

<p>"They don't even KNOW how much fa the applicant is asking for..." Have you filled fin. aid apps? I have. Since it seems that you haven't, I'll tell you: There's a box which asks you to write how much you're willing to contribute. Plus, they ask for bank letters. They know how much money you have. That's not hard for them to figure out how much fin. aid we need, do they?</p>

<p>"I dislike ppl like you, who deliberatelly put things in a very bad light.."
NO, I'm talking reality, here, dude. The real world is not always candies, do you know that?</p>

<p>"I know a lot of applicants form romania, WITHOUT exceptional accomplishments (such as international awards, or excellence in a field or another) who made it, of course, asking for FULL FA."
Good for you. Congrats to them! Your friends just proved my point. Only exceptional international applicants get full rides. You should've learned from them.</p>

<p>"i think discouraging ppl is the worst thing to do, you're a troll!! :P"
I think so, too. I'm not discouraging people. I'm telling them what the reality is so that they don't get floated away by the pictures colleges draw up. Instead, I'm PREVENTING them from being discouraged. I want them to know that money matters, too. So if they get rejected even if their stats are stellar, they'll know that there is nothing wrong with them. It's because of their money.</p>

<p>You're overworked, Pavalon. Chill out.</p>

<p>Even if you've called me a "troll" and "paranoic" and called what I good-intentionally said "*<strong><em>ing *</em></strong>," I'm not mad at you, dude. Reconsider your position. Many colleges are not as angelic as they may seem.</p>

16

<p>genizcolone: I sent my fa app at Princeton Undergraduate Financial Aid Office
, and my application at Princeton Undergraduate Admission Office
... DIFFERENT OFFICES!!!!! with DIFFERENT employees!!! Stop telling me that they surreptitiously check my fa app and consider that as a factor. It's lame and untrue!!</p>

<p>-bank letters are considered AFTER you're accepted...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Only exceptional international applicants get full rides

[/quote]

read my post carefully: i said "applicants WITHOUT exceptional accomplishments ". they were very normal students, of course very strong applicants: EVERYBODY, intl or not, has to be exceptional to get into top colleges... "intl have quota's": that's true! but "intl are judged by their FA at need-blind (for intls!!!) in addition to their APP" is unacceptable.</p>

<p>and NO, you're not helping anyone by "preventing them from being discouraged"... *No app with stellar stats will be rejected cause he/she asked for FA <a href="at%20need-blind%20schools">/i</a>. ALL you're doing is discouraging ppl from applying, by telling them that they wont get accepted cause they're asking for money..</p>

<p>and bogororo: for the 100th time: Princeton is REALLY need-blind. they will NOT NOT NOT look over your fa app as an admission factor. why is it so hard to accept it?! ... PRINCETON does not NEED the bucks. That's why they ARE giving away millions of dollars each year as FA - for domestic as well as for intls (and this answers to NoFX, too). check the numbers!!!
<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/profile/04/29.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/profile/04/29.htm&lt;/a>
115000000$ for FAID</p>

<p>AND</p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/aid/appl/01.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/pr/aid/appl/01.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>and look at this!!!:
" Expanding our need-blind admission policy to include international students. (As far as we know, Princeton is one of only four colleges that doesn't limit the number of international aid students" Lying at this level is illegal. Why would they do it? they have ABSOLUTELY NO WIN, only MORE apps to look over, if they would be lying!!!</p>

<p>And, very important: you say you're talking reality, but where is the evidence? Bring proof, and until you do, stop accusing universities of absurd (and illegal!!! if what you'd say would be true, then the universities would be braking the law!!!! that's what you're telling me???? ) practices. I want proof!!! Prove to me that "the world isn't candies", stop stating sophistries...</p>

17

<p>Look, it's not about lying. The guys at Princeton don't see your FA application. But you have a small place on the CommonApp where you should state whether or not you are applying for FA. That's all they get to know.
I could tell you that the proof is the fact that there are more rich people into HYP than the average distribution in the general population; although that can be justified by the fact that statistically rich people have better opportunities. Actually for me is clear that the adcoms have to take "responsible" decisions - that is admit a class that the university is able to support, financially speaking. The thing is that the money for Intls don't come out of nowhere - they are limited, even at Princeton.
And about lying - they are not lying. They consider you as an applicant, whollistically with what you bring into the university. It's very hard to make a case on discrimination based of financial matters because the admission process is so complicated and they could find a flaw in your application to justify their decision.
Anyway, don't be negative now, there should plenty of FA out there, even for internationals.</p>

18

<p>Hey, Pavalon, it seems you suddenly jumped from talking about colleges in general to talking about Princeton. Where do you stand?</p>

<p>You know what, I'm getting tired of this. I have good intention. That's why I decided to post. I want to share my opinion and inform people. But some people take my posts negatively. This "discourages" me, Pavalon.</p>

<p>
[quote]
bank letters are considered AFTER you're accepted...

[/quote]

True, but ONLY for Princeton. What about Harvard, MIT, and Yale? Bank letters must be attached to their fin. aid applications.</p>

<p>
[quote]
i said "applicants WITHOUT exceptional accomplishments ". they were very normal students, of course very strong applicants: EVERYBODY, intl or not, has to be exceptional to get into top colleges...

[/quote]

Pavalon, you're eating your own words. One moment you said they are NOT exceptional. Another moment you said they ARE. Stick to your position. It makes me confused.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and NO, you're not helping anyone by "preventing them from being discouraged"...

[/quote]

From what point in history has preventing people from being discouraged a bad thing? And I've never meant to discourage people from applying. BY ALL MEANS, APPLY! Again, I must repeat that I only want to inform, not to discourage.</p>

<p>
[quote]
ALL you're doing is discouraging ppl from applying, by telling them that they wont get accepted cause they're asking for money..

[/quote]

Wrong interpretation there. NEVER once did I say that. I'm saying that there's a CHANCE they won't be accepted because of money factor, not that they "WON'T get accepted" at all.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And, very important: you say you're talking reality, but where is the evidence? Bring proof, and until you do, stop accusing universities of absurd (and illegal!!! ... )practices.

[/quote]

You're asking for proof. Tell you what: I don't have any proof. Neither do you. Your proof is Princeton's words from its website. I want to believe it, too; however, those words are not proof -- they are only words. But I won't argue with you about Princeton because I also trust it's sincere. But wait a min, before this you were talking about ALL colleges. I have proof for them. As I mentioned earlier, and you can verify from their apps, they ASK for bank letters.</p>

<p>All in all, Pavalon, I truly wish the colleges were not lying when they said "need-blind for internationals" because I need the money, too, just like you and many others do. But I do not know for sure that it is completely true.</p>

<p>Why do you have to be so defensive? I hate to call people "naive," so I won't use that word on you.</p>

19

<p>I'm also tired of this. </p>

<p>i focused on princeton cause i don't have time to gather the info for all the others... but if you believe that pton ppl don't lie, why would the other... ESP Harvard, Yale and MIT... come on... </p>

<p>i'm sorry i used all the harsh words, just wanted to say that when it says need-blind, it is need-blind. Universities are not businesses, and, oh, i'm really tired of this...</p>

<p>i'm not naive, and it is a fact that the only thing that tells you that the colleges might lie is your common sense: "HOW in the WORLD could they truly disregard FA??"...</p>

<p>well, just like that :)... and at this point, it's true, i also rely on my common sense, and say: "They have nothing to win by lying. Thus they're not lying."</p>

<p>I will not say anything more on this topic, at least not in this thread.
Good luck with your application and i hope the result will radically change your views...</p>

20

<p>I'm glad you're also tired, Pavalon, because if you aren't, I have made up my mind not to say anything anymore.</p>

<p>I hate to bring this up again, since you seem to propose a truce, but if you have time, check out the Columbia thread. EA'ers have just got their decisions. US citizens with SATs above 1500, stellar ECs, near-perfect GPAs are rejected outright, not even deferred. The only reason they could think of is that they applied for financial aid. For your information, Columbia says they are need-blind for US citizens and permanent residents... just an example that colleges can lie.</p>

<p>They can win by lying, saying that they are need-blind. It's for their image (reputation).</p>

<p>I've said everything. I'll end it here. Good luck on your application, too. I hope both of us will get in with financial aid. Wish all of us internationals the best!</p>