Fine-tuning the college list

Parents Forum
1

<p>I'm getting to the point where I'm pretty set on my list, but any more college suggestions would be great.</p>

<p>Stats
Current Junior</p>

<p>Location- Rural Wisconsin, middle class family (80k/yr)
Will need financial aid.
Gender- White female
GPA- 4.0 UW - school doesn't weight
Class Rank- 1/185 (class will shrink further)
ACT- 36 composite - 36E, 36R, 34M, 36S, 8 essay
SAT - 2290 - 770 CR, 720 M, 800 W - 11 essay
SAT IIs- 800 US History, 750 Math IIC (retaking), will take Biology this June
APs- Sophomore - US History (5)
Currently taking Calculus AB, Biology, English Language, and US Government.</p>

<p>My school only offers 5 AP classes, and I will have taken them all by the end of my junior year. Normally, that is impossible to do, but I'm a year ahead (by my school's system) in every subject. So, senior year, I will be taking 16 credits at UW LaCrosse (the school district will pay for 18 credits, no more than that). My college classes will likely be: Calculus 2, Calculus 3, and Physics 1 & 2 (calculus based). </p>

<p>Through my superior skills of persuasion, I also convinced my school to pay for me to take 3 online APs through the WI Virtual School - Macroeconomics, Psychology, and English Literature. </p>

<p>At the moment, I only have 2 years of foreign language (due to scheduling) but will try to take German 3 my senior year. Does having two years disqualify me from some of my schools? (I can't take language at UWL becuase I haven't taken all of the German courses at my high school, and it took two months to get my three online classes approved; so, taking it normally at high school is my only option.)</p>

<p>ECs/Awards</p>

<p>Girl Scouts- 12 year member, Bronze Award, Silver Award, Gold Award, completed Counselor-In-Training 1 and 2 (summer leadership camps). </p>

<p>Summer Science Program (SSP) 2009 - Socorro Campus</p>

<p>Band- flute for 7 years, piccolo for 4
-marching/pep/symphonic band
-State Solo/Ensemble competition qualifier/participant - 2 years
- possible drum major senior year</p>

<p>Sunday School teacher- 5 years as a teacher- Computer Lab Assistant, then 4th Grade.</p>

<p>Track and Field- 1 year JV, one year varsity (bad coach. very bad.)</p>

<p>Academic Decathlon- 2 years, Social Science Individual Regional Champion</p>

<p>Show Choir- 2 years (I am probably the only female baritone singer that you will ever meet ;) )</p>

<p>National Merit Finalist (likely)</p>

<p>Schools</p>

<p>Prospective Major - Computer Science, maybe a minor in Economics</p>

<p>Reaches:
MIT
Caltech</p>

<p>Matches:
Carnegie Mellon School of Computer Science
Johns Hopkins
University of Chicago
Rice University</p>

<p>Safeties
University of Wisconsin - Madison (Honors Program) - in state
Case Western Reserve
RPI</p>

<p>If you have any suggestions on colleges I should look into, thank you in advance!!!</p>

2

<p>Are you looking for FA? Would you be happy in Madison if it is your only financial option?
Have you taken any CS courses at your HS or local college? Any competitions? While your stats and grades are stellar, I’m trying to see where the interest in CS comes into play. To me, that is the biggest question mark in what you’ve told us – where is the passion for science? Why should MIT, Caltech or SCS want to admit you for comp sci? Your profile is not telling me WHY you are interested in CS or what you’ve done to pursue your interests in that direction.</p>

<p>Your matches are reachy for any candidate – not because of your scores or grades, but because these schools get many, many more applicants than they have room to admit. I’m not saying you won’t get into some of them, but just be aware.</p>

3

<p>The School of Computer Science is on the reachy end of matchiness, but as a female I suspect you’ll have an advantage there. Your other matches are pretty reachy too, but that’s okay. Honestly I think your list is fine for a student with your stats as long as you like your safeties. You will almost certainly get offered money at RPI. You might want to look at WPI as an alternative safety. They offered my son even more money than RPI did.</p>

<p>I do think you should make an effort to get in that 3rd year of German - why risk getting dinged for not having it.</p>

4

<p>Have you considered Harvey Mudd College in Claremont, CA?</p>

5

<p>You don’t need to retake the MathIIC. 750 is an excellent score.</p>

<p>I agree with Countingdown and mathmom. I’m also wondering where the love for compsci will show through. For that reason, CMU would also be in the reachy pile. The rest of the matches are a bit on the reachy side, too, </p>

<p>Having 2 years of German only will look weak because two years are really not enough to achieve any degree of fluency. Try to fit in three years.</p>

<p>Having said this, Madison is a great school. If you want to go out of state, I also suggest adding WPI and Harvey Mudd.</p>

6

<p>Yes, your lack of third year foreign language will be a problem at some colleges – but not at others. </p>

<p>Like others, I found it noticeable that you haven’t mentioned any courses in computer science. Could you take a computer science course at UWL? If possible, take it in addition to calculus 2 (a nice thing to get out of the way). You don’t really need to take college physics this year. </p>

<p>Just as a matter of strategy, I suggest that when you apply (to everywhere except CMU), you say that you are considering several possible majors, listing computer science as only one of them. What the others are depends on what school computer science is located in at the particular university and what other majors that school offers. For example, if computer science is located in the engineering school, mention an interest in computer science along with one or two branches of engineering. If it’s located in a college of arts and sciences, mention your interests in economics and math. In most instances, students don’t have to be certain of their major when they apply to college. Given that you don’t appear (on paper, at least) to have an overwhelming commitment to your major, it might be better to appear somewhat open to suggestion.</p>

<p>This may sound a bit less than sincere, and it is. But the problem is that you are interested in a major where many of the other students have an absolute passion for the subject, which they have demonstrated for many years, both through coursework (at their high schools or elsewhere) and through outside activities (like earning money designing web sites for people). These people are your competition.</p>

<p>Your big pluses are your outstanding test scores and the fact that you’ve taken full advantage of the academic offerings of your high school and sought additional academic challenges beyond that. Your minuses are the lack a third and fourth year of foreign language and the lack of a demonstrated commitment to computer science.</p>

7

<p>

</p>

<p>Good thing to have. You’ll definitely need those next year as you try to persuade colleges to accept you. :)</p>

<p>Would you be able to find a place to do research this summer (does one do research in cs?) which could lead to a paper that you could attach as part of your application to MIT/Caltech? </p>

<p>The one person I knew who was interested in cs and got into MIT did a paper on artificial intelligence as her IB research paper. She attached the paper to her application. I know, just one data point…but it could show an interest in cs that your qualifications don’t suggest.</p>

8

<p>Doing CS research depends on what skills the OP possesses. Working for a prof on a project could range from entering data and running it through models, to developing said model, to deriving an approach to an open problem (which is more along the lines of reserach in math). I know folks who have done all of these things at local universities or NIH-type institutions.</p>

<p>However, these folks also came into those opportunities already having skills (and for most of them, that meant a minimum of AP CompSci AB). Yes, there are folks who get to college and then decide on a CS major – but if one wants to attend a top CS school, there’s got to be some substance behind the interest, because that’s what other applicants will bring to the table.</p>

<p>If the OP’s interests are more along the line of web design and commercial applications, there are opportunties in the commercial sector – but again, one needs to have the skills. Marian is right - -there are plenty of ways in which an interested student can pick up these skills even if a class is not available, and those students who are applying to selective CS programs have either found those opportunities or created their own. I also agree that looking at a CS course at your local college this fall may be a good move.</p>

<p>OP, are you familiar with USACO? If you have a an AP-level skill set, USACO ([Programming</a> Contest](<a href=“http://www.usaco.org%5DProgramming”>http://www.usaco.org)) offers FREE online programming curricula that will teach you high-level programming and algorithmic skills. My S has downloaded tutorials and such to teach himself new languages. </p>

<p>Mathmom, Marian and I all have students who are CS types and have seen what the good CS programs expect of their applicants. Please feel free to PM me if you want more specifics about resources and I’ll put some stuff together (or find old CC links).</p>

9

<p>The consensus here seems to be that your background in CS may not be as competitive as other applicants to MIT/Caltech. How about making the list slightly less weighted towards colleges that are already strong in CS? </p>

<p>Can you find a reach/uber-reach that you would like to attend but which perhaps doesn’t attract too many CS people, especially CS girls from rural Wisconsin?</p>

10

<p>Note that every year Carnegie Mellon does accept a few students with minimal experience in computer science, nevertheless I do recommend getting some experience ahead of time if you don’t have it. However all the colleges listed are good at any number of math and science things. If computer science turns out not to be her thing she can easily switch majors (even at CMU where you apply to a separate School of Computer Science.) MIT also has courses on line that you can work through. My son originally taught himself Visual Basic (in elementary school) using the For Dummies book and he learned Java in computer camp in middle school.</p>

11

<p>I sense some ambivalence on your list, since Chicago (and maybe Hopkins) sits oddly with a list so heavily weighted towards tech.</p>

<p>I also agree with everyone else that your “matches” are all really reaches, but I don’t see a big problem with that since your safeties are all really safeties, and someone with your profile really doesn’t have matches. I would encourage you to think seriously about applying to some Ivy League colleges and/or Stanford. You have the sort of profile that would make you a bona fide candidate at those schools, their need-based financial aid if you are admitted is likely to be better than you will get from the colleges already on your list, and if you like MIT, Caltech, Chicago, Hopkins, Rice, and RPI you would probably love, well, any of them. (Speaking of which . . . 8 urban or semi-urban schools and RPI? Might you want to think about Georgia Tech for that slot?)</p>

<p>Also, you may want to think about looking at USC (attractive merit scholarships available for students like you) or some out-of-state flagships that offer full rides to NMS kids.</p>

<p>Also:</p>

<p>(1) You’re wrong. I know a woman who has sung baritone in mixed choirs since she was a teen. She is in a very hard-core club choir here, and was its president for several years.</p>

<p>(2) A girl I know was accepted at Carnegie Mellon SCS with (some) merit money this year, who had slightly less impressive stats, much less impressive ECs, and a very run-of-the-mill computer science resume (one high school course, one OK summer program, no prosecutions for hacking the DoD network).</p>

12

<p>Consider the financial aid policies of your list. Research which schools are known for heavy use of loans in their packaging. You should qualify for a lot of need-based aid(based on income, if your parents have a lot of assets that may not be true, have that discussion now). Run the financial aid calculators with your parents. </p>

<p>Would you consider a LAC? Some have CS majors but with easy exposure and movement to other fields if it ends up that you don’t love CS.</p>

<p>Definitely take that third year of German. Don’t bother to retake the math subject test. Congratulations on an awesome bunch of scores.</p>

13

<p>JHS, thanks for pointing out that Chicago is on her list (duh!). Chicago CS tends to run to the theoretical, which can be a pro or con, depending on your preferences, OP. Chicago does attract a good number of top recruiters, and there are any number of well-paying jobs on campus for folks with CS skills.</p>

<p>I’ll also second Harvey Mudd as an option. Your stats qualify you for their automatic $10k merit award. In addition, they offer the Presidential Scholar Program, which seeks to attract women and underrepresented groups. If you are pretty sure about CS/sciences, it could be a great place for you. Mudd is also part of the Claremont Consortium, which includes Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Scripps and Pitzer – and the campuses are literally adjoining each other – no bus rides across town. If you wanted to add a second major in Econ, CMC or Pomona woudl be fine choices.</p>

<p>Mudd is about 20-30 minutes east of Caltech, so if you are out there, you should visit both. The feel at each is very different. Mudd was one of S1’s final two choices (behind Chicago, but ahead of MIT).</p>

<p>OP, I hope we haven’t scared you!</p>

14

<p>Many have already covered the main CS issue in that your list is light on CS preparation. I’m going to go through what a CS major can look like:</p>

<p>First year: computing, calculus, physics, writing
Second year: assembler, circuits, discrete structures, mathematical statistics, calculus III, computing
Third year: foundations of computer science (theoretical math), algorithms (lots more math), programming languages
Fourth year: projects, electives</p>

<p>The BS will probably require a few more hard science courses too (Bio, Physics, Chem, etc.) If you have a lot of hard Bio/Physics/Chem courses in your high-school resume, then that will look better.</p>

<p>A lot of CS majors don’t really know what CS is when they start in college and are pretty surprised when they hit the hardware and theory courses. Some are turned off by the hardware and theory courses and go into other majors. If you don’t like science courses, it may not be the best major.</p>

<p>A note on the University of Wisconsin: they have a great database program. Here’s a video of a guy that was a leader of the database team at Microsoft - he’s a UWisc grad and someone that I used to work with.</p>

<p><a href=“http://thesource.ofallevil.com/video/en/us/categories/audience/dev/search?phrase=peter%20spiro[/url]”>http://thesource.ofallevil.com/video/en/us/categories/audience/dev/search?phrase=peter%20spiro&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://thesource.ofallevil.com/video/en/us/categories/audience/dev/search?phrase=peter%20spiro[/url]”>http://thesource.ofallevil.com/video/en/us/categories/audience/dev/search?phrase=peter%20spiro&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

15

<p>JHS, RPI is urban too, it’s in a residential neighborhood of Troy, NY. I agree Stanford (less urban though!) is an obvious addition, and Ivy league type schools might be a good addition too. She’s got time to figure out whether she wants to be at a techie school or not and may even want to leave a couple of less techie choices to the very end. My son had Harvard on his list - just in case.</p>

16

<p>I know RPI is in a residential neighborhood of Troy. But that’s not exactly the same thing as being in Cambridge, or a residential neighborhood of Chicago or Houston, or a residential neighborhood of Pittsburgh or Baltimore. It’s not even as stimulating as Pasadena, although it probably does offer more service opportunities.</p>

17

<p>I think you should take the SAT over–I know others will disagree with me, but a 720 in math isn’t going to get you into CalTech and probably will hurt you at MIT as well. </p>

<p>I agree with everyone else that your match schools are all reaches. So, the question is whether you would be happy at State U. If so, you don’t need to do anything–if not, you do. </p>

<p>Other schools–I’d add Rose Poly; it’s every bit as good as RPI and you may get better merit money there. It’s also a lot closer to home. For a match, I’d suggest Smith College, the U of Rochester and U of Illinois. For reaches, I’d add Princeton-- which is strong in engineering and where I think you’d be more “different” in the applicant pool than you will at MIT-- and Swarthmore. Concur with the advice to check out Harvey Mudd.</p>

<p>I freely admit I know zilch about CS, so I’ve focused on schools that have engineering programs. It doesn’t sound as if you know what you want, so these are all just colleges to invetigate.</p>

18

<p>If you’re a Wisconsin resident, don’t you have reciprocity with UMich? They have very good CS and you may be in the running for some merit $$ (though merit is reachy for any candidate there).</p>

<p>S1 went deep on physics in HS (and not on Bio/Chem) and that seemed to be plenty for the schools where he applied. He also went very deep in math, which is another place where CS majors can get tripped up. For my S, it’s the hardware and software development that he doesn’t like. Give him theory, algorithm development and programming from bare metal any day.</p>

<p>S went three years with his FL and then dropped it in favor of journalism, which proved to be far more productive for him in terms of his writing/editing ability as well as opportunities for programming and website development. It might have hurt him with a couple of schools, but he was glad he did it.</p>

<p>– second tenor mom here…</p>

19

<p>Would score choice apply here? She could submit her perfect ACT of 36 with her subject tests and no one has to see the 720 math.</p>

20

<p>My D (a hs senior) has similar stats and interests. She was accepted this year at CMU, Harvey Mudd, U of Michigan, Case Western and Duke. At CMU she was accepted to SCS despite having no experience in CS. I have read different places that so few girls have c.s. experience that they accept them without the experience. My D was rejected at MIT, HYPYS and Chicago. We know quite a few girls accepted to MIT but they all had stronger science backgrounds and more science awards than my D whose interests were more in math. My D decided on Duke because she wanted more flexiblity as far as her curriculum requirements (she really wants to take a foreign language) and she wanted to be around a more diverse group of students than she found at Harvey Mudd. This time last year she was very excited about doing CS and EE but during senior year her interests changed and she wasn’t as sure about going to a “tech” school. </p>

<p>Please feel free to contact me directly if you might want to talk to my D about her experiences in applying this year.</p>