<p>My son is flunking (as in a F) precalc. He is a H.S. junior. Currently he is in the top 10 percent of his class, and made straight A's except for one B in chemistry. He even managed A's in his first 2 math classes. He made a 5 on his AP Euro.
We knew this semester wouldn't be easy, but this is beyond our worst fears. He also isn't doing well in AP Chem (C average). Math is very hard for him. The teacher seems fair, but tough. He is assigning homework, but not taking it up, quizzes and tests aren't being weighted, etc. He sees a private tutor once a week and has seen her 2 twice a week for the last 2 weeks. He made a 66 on the last quiz.<br>
He is very busy (marching band busy season), but I am not seeing him use all the limited time he has. I almost see him as too depressed or overwhelmed to work. It sometimes seems like he spends more time on the English which he has an A in than his problem subjects. My husband thinks I need to stay out of it and "let him fail". I believe in principle, but in practice tend to follow him around the house telling him to go study. One ironic fact is that I am a chemist. I am trying to help with the chemistry, but again I don't think he is doing all the studying he could be. I don't remember enough pre-calculus to be helpful.
This kid has to be a school at 7am and doesn't come home until 6pm after band practice on Tuesdays, Wed, and Thursdays so his time is tight.<br>
thanks for letting me vent.<br>
Any suggestions.</p>
<p>I am not sure what the " right" thing to do is, but I will tell you what I would do. I would not let him fail. I would email the teacher to get some advice, and I would give my kid two options with a decision date: choice 1 is to try and get chem and pre calc into the B range through tutoring, extra help and hard work, and choice 2 would be to drop each class down to an easier level. I would pick a date where the decision to drop could be safely made.</p>
<p>sounds like a heavy load-- private tutor once a week in addition to everything else?</p>
<p>Why is a kid who struggles with math taking AP Chem anyway? At my kids HS, AP Chem was for seniors, virtually all of whom were strong math students.</p>
<p>Can you ask your S to meet with his guidance counselor to come up with a more realistic schedule? No wonder he’s overwhelmed.</p>
<p>I agree. Talk to the teacher. Where I am, precalc in 11th grade means the student took accelerated math starting in MS. If that is the case, sometimes those accelerated courses move at a quick pace. For some students, the foundation is harder to grasp at this quick pace. Is there a different level of math he could take (e.g. If this is honors, could he change to a non-honors class?).</p>
<p>And see if he can switch to regular chemistry.</p>
<p>Also, if it is time management that is the issue, perhaps your school has something that can help with that.</p>
<p>If you feel this is really depression, keep a watchful eye, and discuss with your doctor.</p>
<p>You had started another thread in August asking if the schedule was too hard. That schedule listed three AP courses. If that is the case, three AP courses and precalc…and did he add the online psych course…and is he really taking regular chem too…the schedule needs to be adjusted. It is far more important to do well.</p>
<p>Xposted with Blossom…I totally agree!</p>
<p>Precalculus is a course that can throw off students who, until that point, were top math students. For the first time they face a level of reasoning in math that they haven’t faced before. I’ve known several straight A students who flunked, or nearly flunked, Precalculus. That course is way harder than it was when our generation was in school, and most of us took it as high school seniors.</p>
<p>So, first, he’s not alone. It sounds as if he’s hit a level in math that he might not be able to handle. Second, you’re not alone as a parent. I’ve even been there myself. </p>
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<p>I think you’re right. He is overwhelmed, maybe depressed, and he is avoiding doing his hardest subject because he feels so defeated at this point. Perhaps he is particularly good at English and enjoys it, and that is why he’s spending so much time on it. I have a hard time with “let[ting] him fail”. That’s the sort of lesson you let happen to a student who’s goofing off or not applying himself. Nothing that you have written sounds like he’s being lazy. Rather, it sounds like he may have hit a wall in understanding, plus he is in over his head with the amount of school work/band practice he has.</p>
<p>Is it too late for him to drop the course or drop down to another course instead? If it is, then see if he can do it anyway. Talk to his guidance counselor. Also, talk to him. Be supportive. Tell him you’re proud of him and know that this is hard. Find out from him how you can help. Back off on any pressure you’re putting on him. Your husband needs to be supportive of him too.</p>
<p>Please let us know how things turn out. I’m thinking about you both.</p>
<p>Your anxious behavior is stressing your son out, your distress is palpable.
Stop thinking about him not getting into good colleges and protecting his gpa, think in the present.
It is counter productive for you telling him to study-he KNOWS he needs to study and make better grades.
Your son is as freaked out about his low grades as you are so… take a deep breath.
My suggestions:
If he is in Honors Precalc, he needs to drop down to regular Precalc.
Ask your son to do all of his other his homework at school during breaks and lulls so when he get done with MB in the evening he can focus on his math work with his math tutor.
He needs to go to his math tutor as many days as you can afford.
Does your son think the tutor is a good match for him?
Watch AP Chem, if he has a C now he may need to drop to regular Chem.
By the way…
He focuses on his English because he is confident in English and gets good grades for his work.
Your criticism about spending too much time on English is angering your son.
You may think MB is the problem because it takes so much time but it actually keeping your son from being even more depressed.
For your family:
Your son’s progress with his math is not dinner table/family/work place conversation.
It is a private matter and embarrasses your son that you air his struggles to everyone.
If he is working well and making progress, then be glad for small victories…not expecting an A work anytime soon.
You have every right to vent and CC is the place for that.
You are your son’s best advocate.
But every time you make a disparaging comment about his work ethic or wondering why he isn’t good in chemistry like you, it cuts deep.</p>
<p>Good luck to your son and to you.
Keep us posted.</p>
<p>I looked at your earlier post. It looks like he has honors chem the first semester and then AP chem the second semester. I don’t really know how that works. </p>
<p>He is early in the year, and I wouldn’t think the precalc content at this point would be exceptionally difficult given that he earned A’s in his previous math classes. Is he saying he doesn’t understand the content? Or is he just overwhelmed with too much work? </p>
<p>I would not let him fail. There is no lesson to be learned from that at this point. A more productive approach (and better life lesson) might be to try to get to the root cause of the problem and develop a strategy to solve it. That might involve dropping an activity, seeing his teacher for extra help a few days a week, etc.</p>
<p>Junior year is pivotal. At this point it sounds like he is pushed beyond his capabilities. I agree that your primary responsibility right now would be to help him find his stride. I agree with the others that tackling AP Chem right now while he’s struggling with pre-Calc is probably too much. I agree with Blossom he needs to get to his GC quick and modify his schedule to fit his abilities/pace ASAP. Letting him “fail” is not the answer right now. If his academic schedule weren’t so top heavy I’d agree. He also sounds like a kid who isn’t enjoying STEM classes and he isn’t doing well in them so why push him into advanced track variations of those classes?</p>
<p>Lots of good thoughts offered. </p>
<p>You have take some important steps to help your son, like getting a tutor. Find out from the tutor what is going on. Does your son not understand some discrete topic, maybe proofs? Or is his understanding of other basic concepts shakey? Since math is cumulative, it is important to know. Poor math skills will hurt him in chemistry and physics. </p>
<p>I agree he should drop down to regs for Math and Chemistry. The pace of the classes will be slower. </p>
<p>Do quit badgering him. Make yourself only talk about it, say, once a day. </p>
<p>But do get him to talk to the teacher. See if there is any hope of staying in that class, or if the teacher agrees he should switch to regular PreCal. And get your son to talk to his counselors and make them schedule changes. I think it is approPriate for you to do the research on the problem, to know what your son’s options are, dropping down or retaking over the summer, but I think he should be the one to execute the choices. </p>
<p>Hang in there.</p>
<p>I agree with VMT about the course content. Precalculus hasn’t gotten hard yet; it’s basically all the same stuff they did in Algebra II. (At least, that’s how it goes in the schools where I have taught it.)</p>
<p>From the way I read your initial post, it seems to me as if band is a higher priority for your son and your family than the math and sciences classes are. I don’t know how much longer that can go on. If he continues to flunk math, won’t the school require him to drop out of band?</p>
<p>I suspect your son avoids studying math because he finds it frustrating to study math. He puts in time and makes no progress. Who would want to do that? I suggest that he might do better with a study partner–either you or another student from the class–so that he can discuss homework as he’s doing it, and try to understand better why the answers are what they are. </p>
<p>My own daughter used to fight me tooth-and-nail when I made her do homework with me; she claimed it made her “feel dumb” when I knew stuff she didn’t. And it didn’t matter how understandingly I said, “The only reason I know this stuff that I had to learn it when I was in school,” or, “I am supposed to know this already because I teach this class.” So if he doesn’t want to study with you, you have my sympathy, but I used to insist when it was my kid. (I realize, not all kids are alike, and yours may make this impossible. I got a lot of resistance, and it was unpleasant for both of us. But I was able to insist and make it happen.)</p>
<p>If you’re a chemist, precalculus shouldn’t be too hard for you. In the fall, it’s mostly functions, including exponential and logarithmic functions, and domain issues and asymptotes. You may have to re-learn some stuff you haven’t known in a long time, and you may have to learn the ins and outs of a TI-84 calculator. And I recognize that this would be time-consuming and you’d have to do it when you’re already tired. But if you do it, you’ll be modeling good learning behavior, and that’s a lesson he can take with him to college. After you both survive his junior year.</p>
<p>I would get him a tutor asap.</p>
<p>He’s seeing a tutor, emilybee. (End of paragraph 1 of the original post.) That doesn’t seem to be cutting it.</p>
<p>Similar issue in my house, to some extent. My youngest has gone from struggling in honors to getting As without opening the book in “advanced” math. He has a hard time asking for help, because he doesn’t know what to ask. I have come to believe that his main problem is not understanding how to approach and solve a difficult math problem. Or as my Alg2-Trig teacher told us back in the dark ages: What do you do to what you know to get to where you want to go!</p>
<p>My son definitely has the ability to do this math. While dropping down a level may be the best solution for his GPA, he wants to do science in college. If he doesn’t learn how to approach harder problems, it will hurt him going forward. He is getting a tutor so we will see how that works, but frustrating for all.</p>
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<p>This part of your message reveals a lot. Since he received a B in regular chemistry, and is not strong in math, I would steer him away from all math heavy AP classes. Does the school offer AP Environmental Science or AP Biology? Those would have more conceptual learning vs. computational. </p>
<p>Even if he has to drop AP Chemistry from his schedule and take up pottery, he needs to do it ASAP. He needs to focus on math, as most colleges/universities require 3-4 years of mathematics while only requiring 3 years of science. Does the school offer math peer tutoring? Has your son used Khan Academy or any free pre-calculus videos out on the Internet?</p>
<p>You need to take the lead in this and contact the GC today.
I would rather have my child do well in coursework at her level than struggle or fail to have AP course designation on the transcript.</p>
<p>How good is the tutor? My son had a tutor for the 2nd half of pre-calc and the tutor just wasn’t very good and I don’t think really helped all that much. We hired a different tutor to help for AP Calc AB and he was incredible, son was in the B+/A- range. A GOOD tutor can make a huge difference.</p>
<p>I have been tutoring HS students in Algebra, Geometry, Pre-calculus and Trig over the past ten+ years. Last year, I worked with a HS senior in pre-calculus who was in an similar situation. The first month or so I struggled with this student because there were no real concrete results. I would repeat the same feedback with respect to her poor study habits but nothing seemed to click. It was also clear that her math skills were on the level of a pre-algebra student. I then realized that we needed to increase our tutoring sessions from once per week to three times per week. I also enlisted her mother as the “enforcer” when it came making sure that she placed a higher priority on her studies and less on her extra-curricular activities. In the end she ended up making a C in pre-cal. She also took stats the following semester and made a B+ without the need for any tutoring. </p>
<p>I received a wonderful thank you letter from this student thanking me for the tools I provided her going forward. She also stated that she hopes that she will make me proud after taking her math classes in college.</p>
<p>Proud makes a good point. I don’t think once a week is enough when a student has an F. If you can get a tutor a few days a week, that would be helpful. If the teacher is good, it might be very effective to meet with him or her if willing. Is the teacher available after hours. Is the teacher available during the day at a time that works for your son? </p>
<p>It also might be helpful to get some detail from the teacher. They see the work, they know the weaknesses. Use him/her as a resource. Is your son handing in homework and getting it right but not doing well when tested? Is he not handing in homework? There are a lot of possibilities here, and I think even if you increase the number of tutoring sessions, you will need to answer some of these questions.</p>
<p>Hey, OP - I’m a chemist whose daughter also had a hard time in precalc!</p>
<p>In our case, the teacher was TERRIBLE. My daughter saw a tutor AND talked regularly with the teacher, asking for help and just maintaining a personal relationship with the teacher. I also worked with D when I could - I found that it didn’t really matter if I knew the content that well, just asking D to “explain it to me” often helped her see what areas she needed to focus on.</p>
<p>Don’t let him fail. Don’t nag (I know how hard THAT is. My D would let my H and I help her with chemistry until we got “that tone” in our voices. And my D had it especially hard because both her parents are chemists…)</p>
<p>In our house the concrete rule was less than a B then all ECs immediately stopped until > B was achieved. School is the #1 priority. Band, sports, clubs, etc are way down the list.</p>
<p>^^It’s a good thing your genetic pool didn’t produce B average kids! 
Anyway, I agree with VMT about talking to the teacher, who might have some insight why the OP’s S has hit the equivalent of a math brick wall.</p>