Since the summer camp season is approaching, I thought I would start a thread for class of 2017 football recruits looking at the Ivies, Patriot League or other academic schools. Thanks to @Ohiodad51 and his narrative of their ivy recruiting experience we all have great insight into how the recruiting process works. So now I’m interested in how recruiting is going for this current class. My son went to a couple ivy junior days and have decided on a few summer camps. We are headed to Yale, Princeton and Penn this summer. Anyone else have their summer planned?
If you are a parent and want to know about the athletic recruiting process, I can help you out I am a parent with 2 sons who have been through the process. By way of disclosure, I wrote a book that has sold over 12k copies, but I am doing a free webinar on Thursday at 9PM on how to get exposure, it is 100% free and you can learn more here http://sportsscholarshipcoach.com/webinar I hope this is not in violation of any rules on the form. if so, i aplogize in advance and please delete this.
My son, Class of 2018, will be attending Harvard and Princeton specialist (kicking) camps in June. We have made several unofficial visits to some Ivies and MIT and were told that attending these camps as a rising Junior would be great exposure for next year. Hopefully, it is not a waste of time.
My son is also Class of 2017 and attending Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Dartmouth football camps. We did not attend any Junior days because of distance. A few schools came to visit his high school in early May. I am still very confused about the interest level or how to understand how interested they are in my son. Any suggestions on how to approach this from a parent level?
During the camp, watch the coach and not just the players during the individual drills and competitions, particularly the coach from the host school running the drills. If you watch closely, you should be able to see how often a particular kid has what we used to call “eyes on”. Often you will see other coaches (head coach or coordinator) come over and watch some reps from a kid or two. Sometimes the coach will ask a kid to do something a little different, or demonstrate a slightly different skill in a drill. At several camps my son attended the coaches would move guys around to get certain match ups, which should also give you an idea of the hierarchy. Lastly, each camp is going to end with a best on best competition.
After the camp, the coaches are going to come up to a few kids, and then hang around and let others come to them. The strongest indicator of real serious interest in my opinion is if the coach approaches your kid. Another good indicator is if they ask for academic information to do a pre read. One way or another things change post camp, and some schools will step up the recruiting contact while others may back off. In my experience, the camps were the end of the “cast a wide net” phase of recruiting for good or ill.
Thanks for the quick response. All four schools have requested his transcripts and ACT/SAT. Do they ever make verbal offers at the camp? At what point can I call the recruiting coach and ask questions?
Offers at camp were rare but happened when my son was being recruited, particularly at Harvard and to a lesser extent Yale. Several schools recruited against the idea of early offers, calling them “phony”. There was so much recruiting against early offers that I actually called the Ivy League office to see if there was something hinky going on in extending offers before the July pre reads (there wasn’t). Over the last couple years it appears though that recruiting is getting earlier and earlier, so more schools may be doing it now. Personally, I would not count on it.
All of the schools recruiting my kid (six of the eight) had seen his grades/test scores prior to the camp season as well. My son camped at three of the four schools you listed (not Harvard) and all asked for his academic info again at or shortly after the camp to run the pre read though. They will need an unofficial transcript, ACT/SAT/SAT2 score report and senior year schedule to do that pre read.
As far as calling coaches, I only reached out to coaches directly about the financial aid process. My son handled all substantive contact with the coaches, although we discussed things frequently and I often suggested that he ask specific questions. I can say that the recruiting contact with the schools interested in him got a lot more specific and frequent after the camps. The one exception was Dartmouth, where they were very clear that they were going to back off recruiting contact in the late summer as a matter of course. That said, recruiting is so fluid, and also so very dependant on the style of the particular coach, that I would take my son’s specific experience at specific schools with a grain of salt.
Hope that helps. You can pm me if you think I can help you with some details.
^^Thanks, Ohiodad51. This is such helpful information.
Last year when my son did these camps (as a rising Junior), he overheard several coaches approaching boys and immediately asking test scores (not grades). Based on what the kid answered, the coach would more often than not say something like, “Oh, sorry, that’s not going to work.”
It seemed that the test scores were the first gatekeeper and deal breaker.
Can I ask-- do you have an idea of a rough cut-off for standardized scores for Ivies? I realize it’s not set in stone. And obviously there are shoe-ins (e.g. top 0.1 percentile score). But about at what point will a coach dismiss out of hand and/or only consider if the talent is very rare?
generations…when you went to camps as rising junior, did coaches treat your son differently than rising seniors? Did they talk to him?
@generations Are you familiar with the Academic Index and the Bands system? If not, you should learn about it quickly because it’s a significant determinant of how Ivies deal with academics for recruiting.
To get a rough estimate of one’s AI, go to the google doc excel spreadsheet in www.tier1athletics.org/2012/10/01/academic-index-calculator-2016/
I’m more novice, but what I’m gauging for football is that if you’re getting an AI in the 200s, you should feel like it’s mostly about the athletic fit at that point. That is, you should feel reasonably secure academically. 190s will require a very strong athletic fit and maybe 180s too. Below that will be a tough sell.
The coaches are probably more interested in test scores because the AI formula places 67% of the weight on test scores. In addition, GPAs can be harder to understand because high schools use different systems. My guess is also that there’s not as much variation in GPA as there is in ACT-SAT.
From my friends’ experiences, my sense of a rough rule of thumb is that below an 1800 on SAT or below 27-28 on the ACT gets tough for top Ivies (like Yale), and there’s slightly more leeway for lower level Ivies (like Penn).
I might be completely wrong, but my guess is that the coaches were turning away kids who were at best average athletically while also incredibly far below the academic target range. Kids can retest early senior year, so if the kid shows some promise athletically and doesn’t have horrible test scores during junior, the AI can plausibly increase during senior year and become satisfactory.
@brazos21 I might be completely wrong here. My guess is that coaches might talk to a rising junior, especially one who shows athletic promise at a near FBS level. However, my guess is that they’re really only thinking seriously about rising seniors, and rising juniors are just there if they want to experience what the camp is like. Football recruiting at least outside FBS by and large doesn’t really start until July of going into senior year.
@brazos21, I believe one coach talked to my son, and he did get follow-up interest from two colleges. If he’d been an extreme stand-out, exceptional, then maybe more coaches would have approached him? They’re looking for sure. But yes @fb1998, I’m pretty sure they were really thinking seriously of seniors. He noticed last year that coaches would approach this or that senior boy and say, “Bob! it’s nice to meet you!”
This year, my son has a reel, and he has emailed coaches ahead of time to reiterate his interest, introduce himself, and to say he will be at x or y camp.
It was really worth going last year. Now this year my son knows what to expect. Also, it gave him an idea of which coaching style/school he might be more interested in. Each camp has a different style. And it was fun.
@fb1998, thanks for reminding me about the Academic index! I’d forgotten! (This is my first time doing this–can you tell?) Very helpful.
" I might be completely wrong, but my guess is that the coaches were turning away kids who were at best average athletically while also incredibly far below the academic target range…"
No, unfortunately, they weren’t turning away kids who were ‘at best average athletically.’ These were the kids who are stand-outs at the camp that they were turning away. The coaches were definitely interested, and they were definitely disappointed when the scores were too low. I don’t think they’d approach an average kid and bother to ask them about test scores–there are a lot of kids there.
I’m guessing their test scores were too low to be considered at all. Of course, there are stand-outs and there are stand-outs (there are a lot of talented kids there). I’m guessing they can make exceptions in test scores for truly tippy-top gifted kids, but these would be rare.
Echoing @fb1998, the band system is crucial to understanding Ivy football recruiting (and to a lesser extent NESCAC and Patriot football recruiting). Go to the TierOne calculator, and run your kids numbers today. http://www.tier1athletics.org/2012/10/01/academic-index-calculator-2016/. Two years ago the TierOne number was dead on at five Ivys and off by one point at another (probably a rounding error on my part). It is a very important tool. And since @varska won’t say it, when you are done using the calculator, buy the book and then pop over to the Kimberly Anne Gillary Foundation (http://www.kimberlysgift.org/) and kick in a couple more bucks.
Definitely run the numbers before you go to the camps. I can not stress enough that everything that happens on the academic side in football recruiting starts with the AI number and the band system. I personally spent a lot of time trying to ferret out how many slots each team had in each band and more importantly the threshold score for each band. Accurate information is not easy to come by, and changes from year to year and school to school. Very generally schools will get 1-3 in the lowest band, 8-10 in the second, a like number in the third and then 10 or so in the highest band. As near as I can tell, the exact number of slots per band depends on the vagaries of the particular AD and the breakdown of the three preceding classes both in raw numbers and by band. Again speaking very generally certain positions groups are only going to be recruited in certain bands. Virtually all offensive linemen recruited in the Ivy came from Bands 3 and 4 (the highest two), the vast majority of d lineman and linebackers did as well. All specialists are going to be Band 4 kids. Kids who are Band 1 kids are really, really special players who likely contribute as freshmen.
As far as the threshold numbers, generally speaking and as of the last few years HYP are going to be within a point or two of each other at the top, followed by Dartmouth and Columbia a few points lower and then Penn, Brown and Cornell a few points behind them. These numbers are set by some statistical process I do not understand geared to the academic index of the four preceding enrolled classes at each school. If you want a very general explanation of how the AI system works there is a basic worksheet published by a prep school several years ago (https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_counseling/Publications/AI_Guidelines_Worksheet.pdf) While the numbers on the mka worksheet are not accurate anymore (if they ever were) it does give a general outline of the AI and band system that could be helpful
It is always to your advantage to be in the highest band possible, because while a coach can use a lower band slot on a higher band kid (taking an extra third band and one less second band as an example), he can’t do the reverse. So while I wouldn’t say that there is a threshold standardized test score per se, there most definitely will be a threshold AI score. What that is though will depend on your son’s recruited position and the particular school. Hopefully that helps, and sorry I can’t be more specific.
Thank you so much, OhioDad51. This is extremely informative.
I feel stupid, but I don’t understand how to run the AI calculator you linked. When I put the numbers in, nothing pops up. Is an overall score supposed to appear in the gray box?
It should. Try pressing enter each time you put a value into each field
Here our a couple of thoughts on attending camps as a rising junior. I recommend that your S attend a big recruiting camp, a top academic D3 camp and an Ivy camp in order to become familiar with the process. This will give him a chance to get familiar with the process, get a good look at the competition and also gain experience talking to coaches.
This forum has given me a lot of great information over the last couple of years so I would like to return the favor with some hopefully good insight into the academic index. We are extremely lucky that my son has several Ivy and Patriot League opportunities. His first score on the new SAT was in the mid 1200’s and he has a unweighted GPA a little north of 3.5. On the Ivy side this puts him in the second band for most schools interested in him. A couple schools involved want to see him at 1300. He is good shape academically at all of the Patriot League schools. This is strictly information we have received from the coaches but appears to be pretty consistent.
Does anyone know what additional schools (if any) will be present for the Columbia and Cornell camps?
@Ohiodad51 It’s been a while…my son is now a rising Senior…he went to some Ivy camps last summer (Kicker/Punter). He now has all scores (ACT 35, SAT 1560, SATs 800’s, GPA 4.0 unweighted) and Junior tape. His #1 is Harvard. He received hand addressed note from head coach today saying he is a person they are considering strongly to support. Wants him to go to camp in June. Told him to call he or recruiting coordinator if any questions. Signed by hand with personal note to son. This came after they requested transcripts from school. What is your take on this? Is this just standard stuff or should we be encouraged? I want my son to call the coach in next few days and meet in person.
Also, I have noticed that some in the class of 2018 have reported that they have received offers last month and this month…247 site…are these real offers? How is that done in the process timeline you have written about?
I think any effort a coach takes is a positive. Murphy is not sending hand written notes to kids who are not on his radar. Now, does it mean that your guy is 1 of the top 2 or 3 kickers on Harvard’s list? No way to know. But it probably means he is on the list. Otherwise, why would Murphy take the time to reach out?
To me it helps to think of this stuff in tiers. It starts with the generic e mails and mailers. Then each layer of personal contact slices the pool of competitors a little bit thinner. Some subset of kids who are on the e mail list will get handwritten notes and/or personal e mails. And later some subset of that group will get phone calls or school visits. Each of these things should be understood within the context of how much the coach had to expend to do it. These guys do not have a lot of free time, and I don’t think they are reaching out to high school kids for fun. When they do something that takes effort, it means something. The more effort it takes, the more it means. Do you know what I mean?
As a specialist, your son needs to understand that he is competing for a finite number of slots, and that most schools will not take a kicker and a punter every year. I took a quick look at Harvard’s roster, and they show 2 kickers in 2016. One junior and one freshman. They also show one punter, a junior. This would make me think that Harvard may be in the market for a punter, but maybe not a kicker, this cycle. I think rosters are a very underutilized and misunderstood resource in the recruiting game. I looked hard at the rosters at various schools over time when my son was getting recruited, and it really helped me understand where his position might be at a premium in that particular cycle.
As far as early offers, recognize that my direct experience is now a full cycle behind. I did help a kid at my son’s school with recruiting in the Ivy last year, but have no real first hand knowledge of how things are going this year. Things are certainly moving earlier, although football is still nowhere near where some of these other sports are we see discussed on these boards. Everything I saw last year was similar to what my son and others I know went through, and the schools still follow the Ivy common agreement about pre read’s, likely letters, etc. The difference is I think the pressure to get all the recruiting done pre camps, and then build at least a solid part of the class over the summer after the academic pre reads, is increasing. As an example, when my son was recruited, he was 1 of 3 to be committed to Princeton prior to the start of school senior year. Last year, they had 9 committed by that point. I would guess that trend will continue.
That said, both Murphy at Harvard and Reno at Yale are known to kick out very early offers to a lot of top of the food chain kids. Two kids in my son’s class had offers from both Harvard and Yale by this point junior year. One is at Ohio State. The other is at Minnesota. Neither were ever going to go to the Ivy League (although I think the one at Minnesota should have). Reno was (and maybe still is) actually sending out letters over junior winter which I think are designed to look like likely letters to kids. If I recollect, the money phrase was “you are one of a selcet few that we have committed to support during the admissions process”. I am sure those are getting reported as offers. Whether other school are doing that, who knows? As I think I mentioned before, some schools used to recruit against these early offers. Penn under Bagnoli was very aggressive about it, and my son would get an e mail once a week at least saying don’t worry about the early offers, Penn did things “the right way” and when they offered it would be because they knew the recruit was “an athletic and academic match” which I always took to mean offers came after pre reads in the summer. Now I have heard anecdotally that Penn is pushing out offers in advance of junior days. So who knows?