For current students: Is the Honor System dead?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Virginia
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<p>cavalier302, do you work for Honor? until you do, I'm not going to take any charges that I'm "biased" against the Honor System...</p>

<p>Tarhunt, for the international student example, this is actually a VERY frequent problem, especially with some east asian cultures, and there is currently NO foreign language translation of the Honor System materials. For the two intent-related issues, intent is currently defined as "the student knows or should have known this was an Honor offense"... as soon as you start making exceptions here, guess what, it's not a single sanction anymore. As for the mother dying point, some people react to different things in different ways. The particular example I'm thinking of is somewhat different, but this was someone who REALLY reacted poorly. Again, as soon as he came to his senses he tried to make up for it, but it was already too late.</p>

<p>And again, cavalier302, unless you work for the Honor System like I do, your points aren't even worth responding to.</p>

42

<p>wahoo2, I'm an Honor counsel. And yes, I still think your examples are terrible.</p>

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<p>I agree with Tarhunt.
And on citing sources, us engineers arn't dumb. We know how to use the internet, the library, professors....there's no reason to mess up citing. Although I once turned in a paper and forgot the extra page for citing the work, and I got a BIG slap on the face (not even the wrist!) and a 70 on what should've been a 100.
As for translation issues, if you're going to school in America, learn English to learn the rules. If a kid from Asia spills coffee all over some 16th century sculpture and had the coffee in there to begin with simply because he "couldn't read the sign" that says no food/drinks, he should still be penalized. If I ever travel to a foreign country, I'd go the extra mile to learn the rules.
And we've all had desperate times. But what seperates the men from the boys and the women from the girls is owning up to our hard times, facing them, and working around them on our own, or with honest help. </p>

<p>Wahoo - just because you work for the honor system doesn't mean others can't voice opinions.</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE]
there is currently NO foreign language translation of the Honor System materials.

[/QUOTE]
Our Chinese students wrote a website for prospective students from China. The Indian students did the same. I couldn't read either the last time I looked at them (my browser can't even see the characters), but I have to imagine that if they cover major characteristics of the University, the Honor Code would be included. </p>

<p>What you meant was that the students who are on the board haven't written anything in another language.</p>

45

<p>Wahoo2, though I wouldn't say UVA students are perfect, but when it comes to stealing, I wouldn't be so quick to point fingers at your fellow classmates. Just recently, an attempted robbery was done on a student by non-students. Luckily, he got away. Yeah, bikes might have been stolen, but who's to say it's being done by other UVA students? It could easily be perpetrated by townies taking advantage of UVA's openness. Keep in mind that townies don't live by an honor system. This doesn't mean Charlottesville residents aren't honorable people. I'm just saying their actions have no bearing on UVA students being honorable or not.</p>

46

<p>I'm also an Honor counsel, and agree with cav302. All I see are a bunch of made up 'facts' that the Honor system is failing, and some apparently fake studies which can't be examined for their own legitimacy. Also, the idea that people who work with Honor are more in tune with talking about the merits of single sanction is ridiculous. How about we bypass the student vote next time and just take a straw poll of the Honor support officer pool? That'll be interesting.</p>

47

<p>ok, wow, lots of attacks here, so I'll take it one at a time...</p>

<p>cav302, that's deeply disappointing... I'd hopes those actually within Honor would refrain from personal attacks, but I guess I was wrong. You used the exact same tactic your side has been using the whole time. Instead of actually saying why my examples are "terrible" you just attacked me. If you want better examples, talk to Sam Leven, President of Hoos Against Single Sanction, and one of your fellow counsel. He has a lot more case experience than I do and probably a lot better examples, and since you're both counsel, I'm pretty sure he can tell you with some more detail too because of the confidentiality rules. He's also used to the personal attacks, while I, judging from the personal attacks I'm getting especially by personal message, would rather avoid giving out my name...</p>

<p>Shoebox, two things. First, I never say those who don't work for Honor shouldn't have an opinion. Actually, usually, if you don't work for Honor I think you have a BETTER clue about the single sanction, with the possible exception of knowing specific details. I will not tolerate, however, from non-Honor people (or from Honor people, for that matter) being told that I am "biased against the system," "don't understand the system" or "fabricate examples"... As for your second point, I hardly think all or even most engineers don't know how to cite sources. We see maybe 5-10 engineering cases a year out of how many people in the E-School? However, when we do see them, it is often people who plagiarized papers because they didn't know how to properly cite, had NO previous writing class experience, and weren't taught in high school.</p>

<p>Dean J, I know the sites you're talking about, however, they are not official and accessible to ALL international students, but more importantly, they don't contain the level of description and definitions needed that are available in English.</p>

<p>Globalist, you already made this point, and as already stated, this is the most valid argument against my point. However, these factors also exist at most of our comparable schools, yet we still have higher cheating rates. Either Charlottesvillians steal much more frequently than other locals at other schools, or there's a problem within our school. There are police reports you can find on this stuff, and I more than invite you to search for them.</p>

<p>sv3a, I never said that someone not in Honor has no place commenting on the single sanction, as stated above, I think people in Honor have less place commenting on it than regular students... However, people not in Honor have no right to accuse me of not understanding the system...</p>

<p>I would like to request that the personal attacks I'm receiving privately stop. It is really pathetic how those who are so "honorable" to support the single sanction can be so dishonorable about defending it. I assume you're the same people who tore down HASS fliers, and sent some of the HASS leadership threatening e-mails during the campaign? Honestly, if you're going to 'preserve' honor, you should at least be honorable about it... But judging how Sam Leven, one of the most honorable people I know, and other single sanction opponents within the Honor support officer pool are so frequently attacked, I guess I'm not surprised.</p>

48

<p>All I said about the engineers, or any person who gets caught plagerizing for non-citation of their work, is its kind of inexcusable. There's so many resources around students that they can get by without a first writing class or taught in high school. I haven't taken an english course this year and I was pretty much handed a cheat sheet in high school of citation rules that they don't even use in college. I still cite correctly. While I know I would want a second chance, I don't think getting rid of single sanction would help. There should just be a policy for cases like that where if it is determined that the student made an honest mistake and takes the effort to fix it, then it can be looked over, but only once. But if a student blatenly cheats/steals/lies, then yes, I would hope single sanction kicks in.</p>

49

<p>I don't see very many personal attacks in this thread. A personal attack would be something like 'You're an idiot so you can't talk about this subject'. Honestly, trying to misconstrue this into some big attack on your character and turning it around and saying that we're probably people who tear down fliers and aren't honorable is what is truly 'pathetic'. On the contrary, making claims that cheating and stealing rates at this university are higher than other universities and public bus stations, while simultaneously citing studies that don't exist, pretty much invalidates large portions of what you are saying. I searched for these studies and did not find anything on the internet that could provide information.</p>

50

<p>shoebox, I'm not stating which alternative to single sanction I prefer, but something in which someone gets a FAR more harsh punishment for a second offense is certainly one I believe in...</p>

<p>sv3a, I was more referring to the personal attacks I'm receiving by personal message, and am pleased to say you're not one of the people sending them. However, cav's first comments about me WERE personal attacks. That being said, I NEVER (except once by accident, which I do correct) say U.Va.'s cheating rate is higher. It's about equivalent (Center for Academic Integrity). Sources for the stealing studies I'm referencing aren't online, which I think is absurd, I'll see if I can find some other ones to reference to you. However, please actually read what I'm saying. To quote precisely what I said at the start of my attack you'r quoting:</p>

<p>"I would like to request that the personal attacks I'm receiving privately stop"</p>

<p>Actually reading what we all say would prevent a lot of these miscommunications.</p>

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<p>Oh geez, get off your horse. They wern't personal attacks. He was simply stating what he thought. He's "attacked" me before, and while yes it sucks to be shot down swiftly and harshly (which I must say, kuddos for him for doing it so well...he must be an excellent writer), he's just posting his opinion. No one's out to get you, its not classy and UVa is a classy school. Just ignore your PM box, this isn't grade school.</p>

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<p>shoebox,</p>

<p>wahoo2 may not have worded it clearly, but its pretty obvious to me that he's saying he's getting personal attacks via private message - he's not talking about cavs post on this thread. now i'm not saying that he actually is getting attacked, but i think you're missing his point.</p>

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<p>Hi... I'm Sam Leven (the President/Founder of Hoos Against Single Sanction and an Honor counsel)... I've been watching this thread for a while, but now that my name's been dragged into it, I feel compelled to say something.</p>

<p>Actually, I'd like to respond to wahoo2 a bit first. If you are who I think you are, we've discussed some of this before... If not, I apologize, but I'm pretty confident I know. Anyways, first of all, I've never heard of this stealing study of yours, and as a general rule it's bad form to make an argument citing studies you can't directly refer to. Your cheating-related point IS a known fact, but I'd love for you to show me those stealing points. Additionally, your very first post attacks a lot of the people already on this thread... kind of hard to attack other people then complain about people attacking you. Too many people on our side do this. While I agree with a lot of what you side, I have to take exception to a lot of how you said it. I'm inclined to agree with shoebox, just ignore the personal attacks, don't respond or go tit-for-tat with them. "We're not in grade school," as he put it. Also, you're right, I do have much better examples, but I won't go into any of them here because of our confidentiality rules. If you're who I think you are, you're a relatively new advisor, so please be careful of these rules... You don't violate any here, but you come a little close. And, for all of that, those examples aren't as good as some of the really good examples we get.</p>

<p>Now, on to everyone else, a lot of what you've said is fair. However, mostly you've made many arguments that support the Honor System, not the single sanction. There simply is NO evidence that the single sanction works better than any other 100% student-run Honor System. However, the Duke Center for Academic Integrity, widely recognized as the authority on academic integrity issues, has stated repeatedly that CERTAINTY of punishment is a more effective deterrent than SEVERITY of punishment, and the Center actually opposes the single sanction as a solution to cheating, arguing that it instead creates a situation where dishonor is largely just tolerated (you can look this up, or speak to former Center President Gary Pavela about it).</p>

<p>U.Va. students by their OWN admission would be more likely to report cases if there was more than a single sanction. This would increase certainty of punishment, and likely decrease actual instances of dishonor. As long as the Honor System remains 100% student-run, with no administrative oversight, and as long as it only presides over acts that the general student body thinks SHOULD be Honor offenses, I see no reason to believe that this won't work, and because our system is so great for student input, if the change DOESN'T work, then guess what? It's pretty easy to change back. However, it's worth trying something instead of just doing nothing.</p>

<p>Don McCabe's survey from 2005-2006, again, a survey respected nation-wide for its accuracy, determined as many as 36%, if not more, of U.Va. students cheat at some point or another. I don't CARE what other schools' rates are, I don't care that our rate is no lower than other schools with Honor codes (even schools where the Honor Code is treated with less importance), I don't care what happens at other schools. Other schools aren't U.Va. What I DO care about is that this means that somewhere in the range of 8,000 U.Va. students will cheat during their time here, and that's just unacceptable. Again, I have cited my sources here, feel free to check them.</p>

<p>I love U.Va., and I love the Honor System that I work for (wahoo, I do have to ask, if you hate the Honor System so much, as you seem to, why do you work for it?) and will defend it to anyone. But the sanctioning system it employs is unfair and ineffective, and that must change. However, the single sanction does NOT define the Honor System, nor the Honor System's impact on the student body. An Honor System without the single sanction will not harm the school, and I believe it will make it better.</p>

54

<p>Which of my posts contained personal attacks, wahoo2? I've made short comments about your reasoning and examples of "grey area", but nothing particularly personal. Personal would be sidestepping the issues and calling you an idiot or something - which I didn't do.</p>

<p>You've consistently demonstrated a propensity to avoid direct discussion of the problems with Honor in favor of citing questionable studies and poor hypothetical situations as reasons to doubt the strength of the Honor system. Why were they poor? Because they all represent inexcusable instances of cheating. </p>

<p>International students are admitted based on a number of factors, including their scores on the SAT verbal and the TOEFL. Their english skills should be up to par to understand the basic tenets of the Honor system. Additionally, by signing the application, they affirm that they have read and understood the Honor code. They're not idiots; in fact, in many cases, they're among the brightest students at the University.</p>

<p>The "dying mother" excuse is also weak. It's a terrible situation, but it in no way excuses cheating, especially in the egregious manner that you described. Also, for what it's worth, it's been my experience that people at this university would nothing but accomodating in that situation. Deadline extensions, extra help, whatever - people are always willing to help.</p>

<p>Need I continue with your engineering example? Engineers aren't idiots. Despite the fact that they're primarily concerned with the applied sciences, they're all intelligent and all have writing and verbal reasoning skills on par with many humanities majors. But, you know, it's entirely feasible that some dude who's a little bit unsure of proper citation methods would NOT contact his advisor, a professor or a TA for advice on his DISSERTATION. Or not.</p>

<p>You've also aligned me with a "side" and claimed that my "side" has been acting in some particularly disgraceful manner. O RLY? Perhaps these are all my opinions and I have no affiliation with Students for the Preservation of Honor. But it makes for a convenient debate tactic to align me with a group you claim is responsible for so many dishonorable actions. Please, your condescending, straw-man-loving attitude does nothing to advance your argument. It's a shame because there actually are well-reasoned arguments in favor of a multi-sanction system, but you haven't quite conveyed them.</p>

<p>*edit: Mr. Leven has brought that viewpoint. Good post, Sam! *</p>

<p>Oh, in case anyone else is wondering, I haven't contacted wahoo2 by PM (in case that was implied).</p>

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<p>cav302, I did not mean to associate you with SPH, by "side" I meant "pro-single sanction" side... unless I'm mistaken, there are more people on your side than just SPH... and actually, in my experience, SPH is the most honorable group on the 'pro-single sanction' side, it's the Purple Shadows and IFC and ISC groups that do all the dishonorable stuff.</p>

<p>Sam, I can assure you I come nowhere close to breaching confidentiality, I've made enough changes... As for the rest of your points on me, I'll try to find you that study again, it's something I just came in contact with a while back, I'm surprised you wouldn't have heard about it.</p>

<p>And to clarify my complaint, the PM attacks I've been getting are from people who haven't posted on this thread... I still say cav302 personally attacked me by claiming I didn't understand the Honor System. That can be a valid point, but when made to someone who WORKS for the System, it's a personal attack.</p>

<p>Sam, as to your last point, I don't hate the Honor System, I just have no personal love for it like you seem to. I'm not a counsel or educator for that very reason, but I feel like advisors do the most to help the individuals who have to suffer through the process, and that's why I tried out for the post.</p>

<p>However, the personal issues are sidetracking the whole debate. I agree with Sam a lot of what he says. As for the international student situation, the Honor System is a lot more nuanced than most people realize. Unless you have a complete command of English, there ARE things you will miss.</p>

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<p>cav302, I have to disagree with a number of your responses to wahoo's examples, but ultimately I think he missed some of the important nuances of those cases, so I can't really respond without knowing more about the individual examples... However, there IS a reason that international students are about 8-16 times more likely than others to be charged with Honor offenses. Thanks for the compliment, though.</p>

<p>Wahoo, we'll talk at the next pool meetiing perhaps? But you need to learn to be a bit thick-skinned in this debate... Lord knows I have. :-) But you're right, the personal issues are sidetracking the debate, so I will go back to just observing this one unless anyone further desires my input or my name pops out again. I would like to say, though, I am always impressed by the level of debate average students with little to no exposure to the System can have about the single sanction, so don't be too quick to judge their conclusions, even if they're about your knowledge of the System... I know you do understand it, but you could find a better way to articulate it. Again, we can talk on Sunday if you want.</p>

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<p>I seem to have ignited something here I didn't mean to ignite. I'm sorry for that.</p>

<p>As a practicing organizational behavioralist, I would agree that certainty of punishment outweighs severity of punishment as a motivator, if the two must be delinked. I'm also aware, however, that there are many personality types that are influenced by possible bad outcomes in only a very minor way. In other words, deterrence is overrated.</p>

<p>Perhaps I'm naive that 36% of UVA students were cheating when I was there, but I believe that wasn't the case. I think it wasn't the case because it was culturally unacceptable. It wasn't an acceptable norm of behavior.</p>

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<p>Tarhunt, I don't think you've instigated anything bad here... this has, mostly, been a fairly informed debate...</p>

<p>However, I think you've hit the head on the nail a bit. I don't remember when you said you were here, but in the past, it was much more culturally unacceptable to cheat, well, everywhere, not just U.Va. I don't blame U.Va. students in particular for any change, I think culture has changed nationally, and that is definitely an unfortunate thing.</p>

<p>As a note, I would point out a 1976 Time Magazine article claiming U.Va. had rampant cheating problems, and this article blamed the single sanction because it weakened reporting rates. I don't know how accurate that article was, since I don't think they did studies nearly as extensive as we have today, but it's interesting to note. I'm inclined not to give too much weight to it, nor do I think you're naiive about U.Va. in your time, necessarily. While I'm sure it was worse than you think, I think wider US culture has changed in that direction, and it would be foolish to think that it wouldn't affect U.Va.</p>

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<p>and by 'head on the nail' I mean 'nail on the head'.... second time I've screwed up like this.... Spring Break just ended and I'm already going dyslexic... :-)</p>

60

<p>I'm kind of reviving an old topic here, but has anyone ever been brought up on an honor charge for illegally downloading music?</p>