For thoes of us who don't want to go to Ivy's for UNDERGRAD

Applying to College
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<p>I found this post today right after last night I thought I had completely made up my mind to go to Cornell. I have reasons too-
-Cornell is especially good at undergrad science and I really would like to be a research scientist
-It is large with many facilities, but also has many smaller groups for a closer-knit feeling. This is about as big as I would want to get. anything higher than 15,000 students is too much for me.
-I think I have strong enough academics and work etic to get accepted and succeed there
-I'm visiting in OCtober, so I'll find out if it really fits for me then</p>

<p>BUT! I read this thread. I start to remember other schools I have been eyeing up- especially St. John's in Annapolis. It seems SOOO cool, but does't have the prestige that some look for. I was okay with that.</p>

<p>And now I am about as stumped as ever. Two complete opposites, but I want them both equally. Would I be conforming to society if I went to Cornell? Would I upset my parents if I didn't go somewhere they thought I would choose (parents never graduated from any college but talk to people who supposedly know everything about college. I really don't have too much pressure from them, and I know I can do great things if I go anywhere, but. . .)?</p>

<p>I don't want to take the "easy route" and just go to an Ivy. But maybe this thread is making me think that I would be a conformer if I do.</p>

<p>I WANT to follow my heart, but I really think my heart will e happy in either direction- so how do I choose?</p>

<p>ANYWAY. . .For the longest time I have been thinking "who needs the bloomin' Ivies? Some school are even BETTER than them in many areas." So I agree with the "road less travelled" theory. </p>

<p>But I suppose if an Ivy really appeals to somebody, it can't be bad or uncool. I bet college is fun no matter where you go. </p>

<p>Such is the problem when say a certain type of fashion comes into style and I really like it. Sometimes I don't like it because they are popular at the time, I think they are pretty, fun, cheap, or comfortable. But I'm not sure whether or not to buy because I don't want to be seen as some designer label babe. But I like it, so I buy it anyway. I</p>

<p>f this makes any sense, I don't think we should berate Ivy schools because we are feeling inferior or whatever (I've certainly done it before, but that doesn't make it right). But we should recognize that other schools have merits and for GOD's SAKE- you will have a job even if you don't graduate validictorian from Harvard Law and speak six languages. The founder of the human genome project went to CANISIUS COLLEGE in BUFFALO NEW YORK (not amazing, 72% acceptance and 19% have 2.0-2.9 gPa) for undergrad., a and she is just fine. </p>

<p>So yes- individuals create success. Ivies can help sometimes- maybe with a such a rigorous course-load you are inspired to work harder? I don't know. I still don't know what I am doing myself. </p>

<p>I'm sorry my posts are so long- I don't think they are until I start scrolling and go WOw! I hope you don't mind. I hope I made some sense.</p>

42

<p>Hey, first, let's not have the does-Harvard-equal-success argument again. The 1900-post thread on it is right here: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=187878%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=187878&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>Basically, no, a reputable school does not guarantee any future success to anyone. Specifically, the Ivies certainly don't, and neither do they guarantee prestige; you'd be surprised how many people forget UPenn is an Ivy (as cameliasinensis did in her first post), and few dispute the US News ranking of Stanford and MIT over Cornell. </p>

<p>I've been on CC for five months or so without posting, and yes, prestige is important to many people here (especially those with less experience in the admissions process), but I think the general consensus is that you should attend the school that is the best fit for you. That is, I think, the only valid reason for not applying to one of these eight schools- you just don't feel that you would be at your happiest there.</p>

<p>However, no one should forbid themselves an application to an Ivy for any reason, especially not because of the "brand name" against which some are so eager to rebel. Think your GPA and SATs are too low? Everyone needs a reach! And the Ivies certainly won't "kill your GPA" for grad school apps (in fact, several are known for their rampant grade inflation), nor will attending a non-Ivy "help keep your GPA up for med school." Difficult classes and grade deflation are found in every tier of the US News rankings, and easy classes and inflation can be found just as easily in the top 25. Just as an undergrad program would not equate an unweighted 4.0 from Exeter with an unweighted 4.0 from an urban public school with no advanced classes, grad schools are familiar with individual college grading systems. Don't worry about that. Money? There are thousands of external scholarship programs just waiting for you to apply, and work study is always an option (don't forget the generous need-based aid an Ivy's huge endowment will enable it to give you, if necessary).</p>

<p>Here on CC, we are all self-motivated students looking for opportunities. Whether we end up at Cornell or St. John's, I don't doubt that all of us will succeed.</p>

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<p>Congrats on your first post- I honestly say that I agree with you wholeheartedly. You easily summerized how I feel and helped ease me that I would not be "uncool" if I went to and Ivy. And I guess I can wait to figure out just where I want to be. And you are right- college (esp. undergrad) is about picking where you will be happiest. Wherever that is. If only I could to to both schools. . .eenie-meenie-miny-moe!</p>

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<p>Yes, I agree with magnolia entirely. I do not want to make it seem as though I am saying it is bad to apply to an Ivy, its certainly not. Its just not what I want.</p>

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<p>"Basically, no, a reputable school does not guarantee any future success to anyone. Specifically, the Ivies certainly don't, and neither do they guarantee prestige; you'd be surprised how many people forget UPenn is an Ivy (as cameliasinensis did in her first post), and few dispute the US News ranking of Stanford and MIT over Cornell."</p>

<p>Frankly, this is quite true. There are many sucess stories from Harvard graduates as well as many no-so glorious post graduation stories. I think these can be found at any school. </p>

<p>In the end, I dont most people who apply to an Ivy or a comparable school harbors the naive thought: "I've got in- so now I'm gonna be famous for sure or become rich for sure..." </p>

<p>Most of these people have worked very hard to get in, and will continue to do so afterwards. For those who fail to get jobs after graduating- lets face it, a history degree with a 3.0 gpa from Harvard is still less marketable than a 3.9 engineering degree from a third tier school. End of story. I'm not saying the history major won't get a job but it simply doesn't have the markety value. However, that history degree 'might' just be better than a 3.5 history degree from a no name state school.</p>

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<p>The status and prestige of The Ivies (or any other school) may help get you your first job offer, but once you are out in the real world it is your job performance that will get promotions, raises, etc or however one wants to measure success. Quickly now: where did your doctor, lawyer, accountant, Nobel Prize winner, CEO of major companies that you use go to college. Most people don't know they just know if they do their job well.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
For those who fail to get jobs after graduating- lets face it, a history degree with a 3.0 gpa from Harvard is still less marketable than a 3.9 engineering degree from a third tier school. End of story.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, not quite. Couple problems with this argument:
1. I think you're using "Harvard" to mean "a really prestigious school," but Harvard in particular is known for its grade inflation. So yes, a 3.0 gpa from Harvard is indeed somewhat underwhelming. But that's not the case with a 3.0 gpa from, say MIT.</p>

<ol>
<li><pre><code> Speaking of MIT, let's not compare history degrees with engineering degrees- those are apples and oranges. Generally, a 3.0 GPA in chemical engineering from MIT would actually be more impressive than a 3.9 from, say, Amarillo College in Texas. Ever heard of it? Your employer/grad school adcom might not have, and thus have nothing against which to compare it. The B from MIT wins.
</code></pre></li>
<li><pre><code> What do you mean by "marketable?" Do you mean "likely to get you into a good graduate program?" "Likely to win you a Rhodes scholarhship?" "Likely to get you a job as the highest-paid (insert here) ever?" Because the GPAs, schools, programs and extenuating circumstances that would fulfill each of those three requirements are very different.
</code></pre></li>
</ol>

<p>Once again, though(and thanks for the comments above!), driven and ambitious students (like those on this thread) without extenuating circumstances will be motivated to make themselves "marketable" anywhere- whether at Amarillo or MIT.</p>

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<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but your grades in college don't matter so much with regard to the job market, no?</p>

<p>They are important if you want to get into a good graduate school, but if you are entering into the market right after graduation, its less important, yes?</p>

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<p>I would assume so because a friend of mine applied for a job at the CIA for job straight out of the UT CS program where he finished somewhere around the top 25% in his class. Well the valedictorian of his class also applied for the job but was a complete dick. End of story my friend got the job and the valedictorian didn't. This is just one case though. I would think the interview would be the biggest part of getting a job out of college though a degree from a well known university might help.</p>

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<p>Actually, I've heard firsthand stories of graduates from MIT- it's still hard to find the top jobs if you graduate with a B average.</p>

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<p>the problem with alot of people here is that they seem to reject ivy leagues because they dont want to "conform" or because "other people are doing ivies", but i think those reasons are stupid. everyones missing the pt that ivy league and ivy lite schools offer opportunities that are unparalleled in any other place. You go to harvard, princeton, yale, penn etc.. and u succesfuly graduate u will find urself with many different open doors to different and great opportunities from there its all in your hands and u can succeed and flounder but if you choose to succeed it will be easier that someone graduating for a regular avg college and paddling against the current. How can anyone possibly say thats not true.</p>

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<p>For the record, I think you misinterpret my "its too crowded" quote. I was using that quote to explain my argument on why I didn't like the environment at the Ivy Leagues.</p>

<p>And really finding an environment right for you is far more important than the oppertunities you are talking about skibob.</p>

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<p>What about the doors that open if you are a USC grad? After all their alumni are known to be one of the best. What about the doors that open for UT or TAMU grads? Both have strong alumni associations and believe me they make it well known here in Texas. It's all relative and shouldn't matter that much; you should go where you feel right. Nothing is going to change paying to go to some place you don't like for four years. So find some place that you enjoy and that will offer you what you want.</p>

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<p>thanks guys soo much! i love respectable arguments. ifeel personally (as i repeat myself) that the IVY isn't for me for UNDERGRAD primarily. None of them have my specific major and that's that. i would be glad to attend Columbia or yale for grad school but just not for undergrad. judging from your comments, i am glad to see that we have people on both sides of the pond.</p>

<p>-To sum it up, prestige doesn't equal success
-Pick the college (especially undergrad) that's right for you
-the majority of your college selection should be about your najor. it helps to narrow down your choices when you know what you want to do for a living and which college would benefit you the most in fufilling that goal
-rankings are s**t! go with your heart.</p>

<p>Keep commenting guys...im lovin it.</p>

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<p>I would agree that what you said is true in general...but remember, there's always some people who have no clue what they want to major in. An ivy-like school would generally give these people a good variety in choices..</p>

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<p>^very true... unfortunately many seniors inhs dont know.</p>

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<p>you'd be surprised how many people forget UPenn is an Ivy (as cameliasinensis did in her first post)</p>

<p>LOL, I knew I was missing something. I had a pretty bad visit there; clearly I've done a good job of suppressing the memories. :p</p>

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<p>Like many have said before me going to an ivy league school is a opprunity but I don't thionk going to an ivy would be best for me. I don't qualify for then at all but even if I did I would not go.
The reason why is summed up in the Colleges That Change Lives by Loren Pope. Yes, ivy league schools give lots of opprunities upon graduatiion but I have always thought of college as an experience where you learn, grow and explore. many of the students who go to let's say Havard are the brightest in the nation but have they changed upon graduation? Can harvard take a c+ average student and turn them onto learning causing them to get their PHD in history?
Many of the smaller and less known schools have a higher rate of students getting PHDs after graduating and have students score higher on the MCATs then Ivy counterparts.
I just thought I should bring this point up- i'm sorry if I offend anyone.</p>

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<p>^ don't be sorry....espress yourself.</p>

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<p>Keep it going folks.</p>