<p>The reality is that Berkeley and UCLA four year graduation rates are among the highest of public universities in the US (around 70%). This appears to be consistent with their admissions selectivity, which has a strong correlation with four year graduation rates.</p>
<p>My D just graduated from UCLA a quarter early, as did several of her friends. She never had trouble getting the classes she needed to graduate. It was more like shopping at Trader Joe’s on a Thursday than Walmart on Black Friday…some jostling because of the narrow aisles, maybe a short wait in line, but she got what she needed and it was high quality at a reasonable price. They were also very generous with the AP credit and study abroad units. She probably could have graduated two quarters early but she decided to add a minor. If you want to shop at Saks Fifth Avenue and have the money, go ahead. I’m just glad we have the extra $150,000 for her future (her degree ended up costing about $80,000).</p>
<p>But then didn’t you start a thread about a frosh student at a private LAC who was pushed out of his calculus 1 course, despite meeting the catalog prerequisites for the course?</p>
<p>“Directional” or “regional” non-PhD-granting universities may also have smaller class sizes than research universities. Same with community colleges.</p>
<p>But then a lot of schools use a lot of adjunct faculty.</p>
<p>Bay, I don’t know where you are getting your information, but MANY state flagships require (or strongly encourage) submission of rec letters. In any case, if you think teacher or counselor recs give a complete picture of a person’s moral character (which you clearly believe is more prevalent at elite private schools), I think you are sadly mistaken. Academic achievement and ethical behavior are two completely different things. I have known several high-achieving students (with elite-school alumni for parents, in several cases) who have cheated on the SAT, set school equipment on fire, sold drugs and otherwise shown dubious moral character. The world is not divided into simple little compartments of “elite-school worthy” and “everyone else.” It’s offensive to suggest that the student body at a college that does not require references is more likely to be morally lacking than the students at one that does.</p>
<p>I went to Berkeley back when the four year graduation rate was under 40%. I had no trouble graduating in four years / eight semesters, and could have graduated a semester early rather easily. Late graduation that I saw was mainly student related, as in taking lower than normal course loads. Granted, there was not much financial incentive back then to graduate on time, due to the extremely low tuition at the time (higher tuition is probably a powerful incentive for students to graduate on time).</p>
<p>^This is true. Also, students today might be hedging their bets (and taking longer to graduate) by having double and triple majors since they will be graduating into a tough job market. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, though, more and more state flagships are offering “four-year compacts” for students who are committed to graduating in four years. If my kid attended a state school I would strongly encourage him or her to agree to one.</p>
<p>Tough job market for new graduates? I don’t think it is that hard any more. I do a lot of hiring, and I would expect an applicant to do a lot of explaining if he/she took longer than 4 years to graduate.</p>
<p>So would you accept “I needed to work my way through college and had to take a lighter courseload” as a legitimate excuse? Or is this another example of “dubious moral character”?</p>
<p>If this was done in the context of a high school laboratory experiment, some STEM Profs I’ve encountered would regard that as a big plus for potential advisees for undergrad honors or even PhD programs.</p>
<p>Sally,
Your posts are making me tired. First of all, I specifically stated that the reasons given do not apply to all public colleges. Secondly, I never said that all private college students are squeaky clean. But hello, you <em>cannot be admitted</em> to colleges that require recs if you cannot come up with any, and it is almost certain you will not get into top privates if your counselors and teachers think you don’t deserve it. You can still get into top publics that don’t require recs, tho, like the UCs. There is some good in this if one’s counselors and teachers stink.</p>
<p>Counselors and teachers arent the only people who write recs.
Both kids have had the same volunteer jobs since they were in their early teens.
It helps to plan, since they needed recs that were not school related. :)</p>
<p>Right. You can’t get in to Michigan, UVA, UNC, or hell even Miami of Ohio without recs. Do you actually HAVE a point, or are we just doing barely concealed condescension for the lessers this evening?</p>
I don’t quite understand this. People are saying there is no difference in going to public vs private, so I would expect average students to be able to graduate in 4 years whether at public or private. If it is taking someone longer than 4 years then I would want to know why - is it due to work ethic (not sure if it is a dubious moral character if one is not a hard worker). But yes, work ethic is big with me, so is time management, and ability to plan ahead to fulfill graduation requirements.</p>
<p>Ummm the top “public” university in the country is UC Berkeley and it is #4 in the world AND in case you haven’t been keeping up with the media in the last few days, they just added yet another parking spot for Nobel Laureates. You can’t read anything about science and technology, economics, law or business without the name UC Berkeley popping up, especially science. So in answer to your question… well public universities don’t have a bad rep so lets move on. Oh and BTW my daughter is a senior at Cal majoring in molecular plant genetics/biology so I am biased. Go Bears! ( and no I am not a football fan)</p>
<p>Here let me spell it out for you. M-O-N-E-Y. </p>
<p>Story time: My first semester at Dubious Moral Character U I had a class with a ninth-year senior. At first I thought the guy must have been the biggest burnout on campus. Then I learned that he was a journeyman carpenter who saved up when working and did a semester or two every time he got laid off. He helped renovate the building we were in for class. That guy finally finished in year nine, and I’m here to tell you that if you whiffed on him, you missed out on one hell of an employee.</p>
<p>Your post suggested that you immediately jump to the conclusion that taking more than four is a sign of sloth. For a lot of kids, it’s not. And while my story is extreme, there a lot of kids at publics taking 12 hours and working 30 to earn their way through school. Many of them would probably be great hires.</p>