Former Stanford dean explains why helicopter parenting is ruining a generation of children

Parent Cafe
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D’15 folded laundry, peeled carrots, loaded the soda machine, and vacuumed as part of her volunteer activity (and enjoyed it!). She was not a captain in her sport, not a state qualifier, not MVP, but a valued contributor to her team. There was nothing in her resume that shouted “leader”. She was not an officer in anything. She had an excellent GPA, very good scores but not perfect, and got into a top 30 school with merit aid.

And I did volunteer as an athlete’s parent, because the club only survives by parent volunteers. This yielded my daughter nothing - only that she saw that I supported her in her endeavors.

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Some of the local high school teams had multiple students (2 to 4) designated as co-captains. I presume that this occurred basically in response to the kind of “progression” that fairly good colleges were looking for. I have read of places where all of the seniors were designated as co-captains. Perhaps this was a result of an entire helicopter division.

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I consider “helicopter” parenting part of the bigger picture and consequence of globalization. That is, the world is just a more competitive place today. It manifests itself in many ways. Parenting is just one of them (to the extent parents "push"when in the past they may have not felt the need to). Higher education is another.

At college night the other day, I decided to sit in on a presentation from the University of Houston. I knew they were trying to increase their stature, have become tier 1 research, and I was curious as to what they had to say. They talked about how in the past they served many working class people in the Houston area (their mission). Now, by their own increased standards (and changed mission, presumably), they admit they cannot serve all of these people as they did in the past. They talked about wanting to compete on the global stage and to do that, needed to make some changes. The people they cannot admit, now trickle somewhere else.

I chuckle at the number of my friends who say they would never be admitted to their (now) more competitive college if they were to apply today. There is probably some truth to that.

There is a good place for anyone who has the desire/ability to go to college, it just might not be their first choice.

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There’s what adcom’s say and then there’s reality.

Exactly which “next tier down” college (I assume we aren’t talking in CC speak where the kids refer to CMU and Northwestern as "next tier down) expects to see that level of EC’s given decent academics?

I don’t know of any and I’m not being coy. I see the kids from my area (Northeast, some affluent, some not) who are going to Pace and Hofstra and Quinnipiac and Muhlenberg and Skidmore and Clark and Baruch and Brooklyn College and U New Hampshire and U Delaware and U Mass and Maryland (although they are usually January admits since we are out of state) and BU and Rutgers and Fairfield/Providence/Seton Hall and Drexel and I don’t think any of them have EC’s which are the least bit memorable or achievement-worthy. One played piano at a local assisted living center- but that’s because he loved piano and wasn’t good enough for a competitive slot. Some taught disabled kids tennis at a local camp- but that’s because they loved tennis and weren’t good enough for a competitive team. One is a strong swimmer and worked as a lifeguard and got an award for performing CPR on an elderly man who passed out sitting on a beach chair (not even in the water). Local celebrity for half a day.

I.e. not the kinds of “intense/burn-out/impress Stanford” achievements you guys are describing as being the “de minimus” requirements for the next tier down schools- just things that normal HS kids do in their spare time. Again- which state requires achievement-level EC’s for its public colleges??? Which of the remaining 47?

This trope is long on speculation and short on facts.

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We have no idea what schools her or your kids attend/ed or if the view is representative. We’re hearing a saga of frustration and left to fill in blanks ourselves. If we try to get back on topic, the issue might be: are those top performers somehow privileged? Their parents hover, demand, set higher goals and somehow achieve more for their kids?

OR, are these kids falling apart based on their commitments, to their detriment- while shutting out more normal kids?

Not many other posters are picking up on the impossibility. They are suggesting there can be a light at the end of the tunnel, despite challenges. That’s valid. It may also be more helpful.

I can’t get into a p match about whether one’s hs (let’s include homeschooling) was tougher than another’s, unless we’re talking about certain specifics- TJ is tougher than the hs down the street. The competition in parts of NYC is brutal. Etc.

The bottom line, in life as well as admissions, is that it isn’t always smooth and predictable. When the bar raises, for whatever reason, you face it and decide.

Yes, folding laundry can be good. Packing those food boxes. What’s not so good is to assume it’s not as “good” as team captain. The glass half full thing helps many kids reframe their thinking and approach.

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I realize that this thread was started in response to comments by a former Stanford dean, and that it’s CC, so of course the focus is on schools that are reaches for everyone.

That was not my motive for doing QMP’s laundry (which she was able to do fine, when she went to college) or making her breakfast (which she rarely eats these days). I thought she should do the homework that she was supposed to do, and she should have the opportunity to participate in the EC that she loved, even though I didn’t. If she had enjoyed poster-making and model-building, then not taking APs (and she only took 6) would have been a viable option, because it would have substituted an activity she that really enjoyed for academic work (which has its moments of great joy, but doesn’t tend to be exactly relaxing)–but that still would have involved the school-required time commitment.

As I said a number of posts ago, we muddled through, and I still don’t know what the best choice would have been.

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I know of one twenty year-old sophomore, a brilliant student at a pretty good private college, who had to call her dad the other the day (I was there when it happened) for directions to the nearest subway. She was less than ten blocks from her own house, in a major shopping area and afraid to ask a stranger for directions.

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Not all hs go to cotton ball projects (or whatever busy work it is,) when you drop down from AP. And there are times when it’s right to ask a kid to stay in the challenging section, for a host of good reasons. Many of us have said, I’ll do your laundry, you get back to schoolwork. Or, I’ll pick you up at the practice field, drive you to music practice and I’ll bring your violin. We have to differentiate between helicoptering and the family team. And be alert to struggles, be willing to explore alternatives.

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As I’ve mentioned before, my kids went to an IB magnet that made up (I believe) about one fifth of a Maryland high school in the DC suburbs. There were a lot of really supercompetitive kids there, especially in the magnet, and a lot of them ended up at very selective schools. But a lot of them, including IB kids, went to the University of Maryland. Many of those kids did not have much in the way of ECs. Kids with lower grades and scores went to other Maryland state universities, like Towson. So I can sort of see this both ways–there was something of an arms race among the subset of kids who were really gunning for superselective schools. But for those who weren’t gunning for that, it wasn’t as big a deal to win at everything. I guess I can imagine a high school in which a larger percentage of kids is gunning, and that would be pretty difficult.

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One more comment (sorry): When I was in high school, a friend of mine remarked to me that her mother had changed the sheets on her bed one January evening, when the friend had been studying for semester finals. She said that this felt really good. I still think of that from time to time, and of her mother, who was one of the kindest people I have ever met (and also one of those with the best influence on young people). Some people might be in the “The kids should make their own beds! That’s helicoptering!” camp, but count me firmly out of that.

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I like your post #287, lookingforward, so my #289 should have said “Two more comments (really sorry).”

If one’s local high school does go to cotton-ball projects in the non-AP classes, do you have a suggestion about a non-helicoptering way to change that? Is it even possible to change?

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There are hundreds of local charities that your D could volunteer at that she could take an active role in by her junior and senior year and do a project that would be very compelling to ad comms, especially at 40-80 ranked school. Creativity in finding an outlet for your child’s special talents, that she is actually interested in pursuing and will put her heart into. Or stop just doing laundry and spend time with the people she is washing for and learn about their lives.

If you stick to one of 3 or 4 varsity sports that recruit and a big name club, yes you might sit bench for years. Go play tennis or golf … go hiking … join Venture scouts and take outdoors training and leadership courses … volunteer at a hospital or soup kitchen or local Goodwill store …

If you do 10 minutes a day in CalcBC and are not directly descended from Sir Issac, I wish you the best in Calc 2 or 3 in college. You must do both the easy and hard problems of each type … 30 minutes a day is fine, 2 hours is too much (and I think the top students are finishing in 45 min tops).

If you helicopter to push your child to get into a school that they are not qualified for at any cost … they will suffer when they get there. I guess some people are slipping to Stanford with adult-enabled resumes … well, who is to blame there when there are 20x the applicants, most fully qualified, for each slot.

I still think it is odd that Stanford dean of admissions has this concern, since they could likely recalibrate who they are taking (personally 2400 SAT would only impress me if the student were disadvantaged and had not prep time, it is not a college level test) … I think AP course 3,4,5 is indicative of working hard.

What is also funny is that the stereotypically-non-Asian obsession is sports, way beyond any possible advantage (recruitment is limited to high achievers and usually does not include $), but other pursuits are helicoptering or too burdensome or too meddling. How is playing the piano 2 hours a day much different from endless drills with dad in the yard with a baseball,. travel teams all the time, etc? Either is fine if the child is interest in doing it, actually wants to do it, neither is really fine if it is parent enforced or just trying to check off boxes on a admission application (what a waste or high school and 4 years of your life to not do something that you find compelling).

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QM, the best problem solving takes many factors, elements and variables into account. As a scientist, you know that. If the non-AP options aren’t good, you continue looking at the rest of the options. But so much of this is either hypothetical or anecdotal, that our heads spin.

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Well, it’s anecdotal for the people who aren’t living it. I’m not saying it’s a trend, necessarily, I’m just saying it’s the reality that TheGFG (I believe) and I are/were dealing with.

I would not have imagined it before I encountered it–so I can easily understand why heads might be spinning.

lookingforward, you are basically saying that finding a solution requires so much knowledge of the local “factors, elements and variables” that you can’t offer one without knowing those things? Yes, I can see that. But I know those things, and I’m reasonably good at problem-solving, and I still don’t have any good idea what could have been done, especially within the high-school time frame.

I did see one change that seemed to be a result of elapsed time and teachers’ personal experience: The middle-school had a Rube Goldberg project, with explicit instructions that the students should work on the project when their parents could help them with it. The requirements were pretty elaborate, and the grading rubric (sent out with the announcement of the project) was quite demanding. This project became optional when several of the teachers’ children reached middle school. Of course, that might have been a coincidence.

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There are pockets of high achieving high school students and there are years when those high achievers make up 5 or 10% of the classes. There are pockets of affluence where the number of people who need help are outnumbered by the number of volunteers (and kids trying to ratchet up volunteer hours).

For the former, you try to find your child’s place in the school. If the workload for all classes is ridiculous, you find sympathetic friends and go try to change that (workloads can be modified with admin pressure or even with someone explaining to the parents that they don’t need to build the Eiffel tower in middle school). Or you suck it up for one class and let your children work as hard as they can, enthusiastically if possible, and get a B. Assume there are kids higher ranked and don’t let it bother you, take honors or grade level social studies and get an A, and your class rank will not be below 20-25% (few schools have many people taking a dozen APs and all GTs, just a few).

I would pick and choose amongst the AP and other offerings in your school to come up with something that interests your child. It could be PLTW or shop or programming or whatever.

For the latter, most of the Eastern seaboard has very wealthy areas with very poor areas nearby and some in-between areas as well, if don’t want to venture into Newark or bad parts of Philly. Scouting also has no bars to entry, for boys there is a leadership path that is quite useful, for girls Venturing is a good leadership experience.

And there are more sports than just soccer, football, and field hockey and lacrosse. There are plays, music (learn the guitar, start a band) …

Nowadays, I would think there are even charities who need people to use Excel to track volunteer hours or do other on-line type of things. Every dang event needs tens or even hundreds of volunteers (think about that 5k and all the water cup people).

I think you can get stuck competing with the herd and miss the fact there is way more out there than your little HS and your little town. And, those hours and activities count just as much as assistant secretary to the debate team.

Lastly, if your child is smart, but not gifted, works fairly hard in high school, is socially involved in clubs and volunteer work or in shoveling an elderly neighbors driveway … they will do fine, even if they start out in Towson or NWSE podunck U. Work hard there, move up the ladder to a better school or not, work hard at work and standout and ask for challenging assignments … it’s not even a majority of the uber-achievers in HS who make it big (or big enough with a house, a car, a family and maybe some leisure time). And lots of those HS overachievers will crash and burn … many people even drop out, so your NSWE podunck U degree is better than say nothing (maybe you can get that Starbucks barrista job over them and with a BS in business be the manager in a few years and then manage the Walmart and then the district). Maybe at the 10 year reunion you can see where you are, and then again at 20 year, you will be surprised.

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Q, you asked, “If one’s local high school does go to cotton-ball projects in the non-AP classes, do you have a suggestion about a non-helicoptering way to change that?” And I said you look at all the options for that kid, your kid. And today, not back when you or I were in hs, or our kids who are now graduated, or the last time we checked. Your kid, his or her orbit, in the present (and with a realistic eye on goals. I guess I should say, an informed and realistic eye.)

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It is not helicoptering to make positive changes to your HS that improve the education and the educational experience of years of students to follow. If there is too much cotton ball art or too many classes with 2 hours of calc homework and 5 page essays due twice a week, that is not helicoptering …

None of those things are the norm or the sign of serious high school program, even if it is somehow nationally ranked, unless it serves a very select and self-selected population (TJ students should expect these things). So QM - that’s your answer.

EC hours are similarly self-inflicted, if you don’t want to spend 10 hours a week driving to travel games, find something else for your child to do, or let boredom have them find something to do. If they are staying up until 1am to do homework or because they are out every night with some EC, solve that.

Unless your child is a high achiever who can, with perfect health, sleep 6 hours a night and be highly productive in multiple pursuits, academic and other … I think this is unhealthy and my helicopter would shut it down. Homework not done by midnight is not going to be done (and often your child will stay up to finish to find out there is more time or that impossible problem is not going to count because only the kid with the mom with a PhD in physics got it correct). Tomorrow is another day and the world will not end …

And spend some helicoptering hours teaching organizational, research, and study skills to your child. If they are writing poorly, and you can help, help them learn to write (and then step away). If they need math help, get it for them, get them to the right level and step away.

Coaching and providing tools is not helicoptering either.

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Right, PickOne1, my conscience is clear that if I could figure out what to do to improve things for the current set of high schoolers (QMP has graduated), then it would not be helicoptering to do so. Maybe, maybe not if QMP were still in school. Now the issue is to figure out how to effect change. The local teachers get lots of suggestions, and have grown impervious.

While I don’t know what the solution would have been, some of the suggestions offered are definitely not it. Different categories of problem, different solutions.

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Blossom re #265: I meant beyond my HS. I could not find stats on state Us divided between in-state and out of state for admission standards. Our State U is not one that requires top grades, taking about 60% of the applicants. Looking at how local students did getting into Michigan or UVA is not an accurate reflection of how an in-state kid with the same stats may fare. And I don’t have knowledge of or access to naviance at other high schools.

People are saying their kids need higher stats and better ECs to get into schools that used to be safeties or matches for kids with good, but not super outstanding stats The list you give in #283 includes schools that are fine schools, but which higher stats kids at the local HS would not consider a “win” (except BU). Not saying they should have that attitude, but it is definitely there among the kids that are taking at least some AP and Honors classes. Hofstra, Pace or even Fairfield area a long way from BC or U Roch or Lehigh in terms of the colleges that are at the top of those kid’s lists. But you are correct, all of those are great options and kids will get a good education. One of mine chose to attend our big state U over some of the schools you mentioned.

There are always decisions. Some are choices because the family can afford to pay for the travel team or music teacher or private college. Some are required, because the money just isn’t there. But visiting colleges these days (even when I know that kids with a 3.3 are accepted on a regular basis), they are definitely pushing the top grades, involvement and passion. Families can opt out of the race, but that doesn’t mean the kids don’t feel the pressure.

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Pace $61,189
Quinnipiac $57,090 going up to $59,290
Hofstra $56,240
Muhlenberg depends on what options are selected, but around $54,000
UDel OOS $45,866

No more time to check the rest, but that’s a lot of dough, especially for those in the group I’d classify as very mediocre.

Blossom, CMU and Northwestern are top tier.