Former Stanford dean explains why helicopter parenting is ruining a generation of children

Parent Cafe
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I know a few burn-outs, not from my kids’ hs. If anything, I wish their parents had been more involved, caught some issues sooner.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Consider that. We have to deal with what we have to deal with. There is no one “perfect.” Not in hs and not in life. I wanted my kids to be good willed, good thinkers, able to explore their interests, able to tackle a goal, and resilient. I figured, if we played our cards right, the rest would fall into place.

D2 was first violin in a regional orchestra. Fine. It was competitive. At the time, she deserved it. But. When they changed conductors, she didn’t just move back, she ended up in the last row. Yo. Sure, we spoke with him, but to get his perspective, not to gripe. (And privately, he was right to take her out of first, but not really so far back.) She stayed because she loved playing and the camaraderie. She found her “glass half full.” That’s the life skill. Same with being 17th cello.

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And maybe if she auditioned this year, she wouldn’t make it at all. That’s an empty glass. Sure, the glass could eventually be filled with something else, but around here what’s needed to make it in just one EC is so great that there wouldn’t have been time to reach a comparable level in another endeavor. See QM’s post 277.

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Learning to push yourself isn’t an issue, in itself. It’s when they lose perspective, aren’t resilient. The adcoms I know do look for this. You can see it when a kid takes on challenges and continues to- not just winning class president or varsity captain. Sometimes, it comes out in the essay or another part of the app/supp.

The states with the largest numbers of Asian immigrants are CA, NY, TX, NJ, IL. Yes, if you are in NJ, there are issues. And ime, it runs more than whether there are pushy parents.

Right, she may not have made the cut. But as a family (and this is easier said than done, I know,) we were focusing her on the glass half full- which would have been the years she was involved. And her music ran broader than orchestra, by her own choice. When she moved back, she asked me if she should quit. I said, decide how it matters to you.

The empty glass, unfortunately, can start with attitude. The parents’ and the kid’s.

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I am uncomfortable with “blaming” Asian immigrants for helicopter parents. There are many other factors in such parenting, such as smaller families that make that kind of parenting possible, loss of jobs due to digitization, and the 2008 economic downturn.

Even if we accept the stereotype of Tiger mother, many helicopter parents aren’t Asian. In fact, I think there might be a definitional difference between Tiger mothers and helicopter parents (hence the two terms). In many Asian societies the the family works as a unit. What the parent does for the child, the child will do for the parent. The child has internalized the parents’ and culture’s values (in theory). Helicopter parents, on the other hand, work as external minders. Inherent in the metaphor and culture, there is nothing/little to imply reciprocal responsibility. The kid (in theory) will go off the rails in the parent isn’t there to swoop in and save the day.

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This isn’t about blaming, it’s about explaining. Yes, there are many contributing factors. Still, I can certainly imagine that the evil brand of helicoptering could be the inadequate and desperate response of a parent steeped in traditional American culture to the results of tiger parenting that has increased the competition in his or her milieu. The culturally American parent did not know s/he should have put Susie on the competitive swim team when she was 3 (and in his/her defense, that didn’t used to be necessary in the US) , but now Susie may not make the high school swim team because the other kids did start training way back when they were toddlers. So maybe Susie’s mom or dad tries to manipulate the coach, or run the snack shack to earn favor, or does Susie’s homework for her so she can do extra swim training now, or whatever else she thinks will help Susie get something Susie doesn’t deserve.

(Note: our high school tennis teams are now 100% Asian, and our swim teams are 90% Asian, an extremely disproportional representation relative to the school population. They were already 100% of the academic teams for years. )

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Re: high GPA for a bio admit:

First of all, the ridiculous way that med school admissions work right now (since capping admits to a bio major is just a fancy way of pushing the med school madness down the the HS level) is not at all representative of how most public U’s work. I’d love to see examples of the kids with the 3.2 HS GPA who aren’t behavioral problems getting rejected from state colleges with a stated interest in history or comparative literature or classics. This I’d love to see.

Second- for the vast majority of HS kids who really don’t have a clue what they want to study, picking the impacted major in your state is a weak argument for the EC and academic arms race overall. I am the informal college adviser for my neighborhood (thank you CC… grr…) and typical kid’s response to my question: “What do you think you’d like to study in college?” is usually eyes to the floor and a grunt (male) or a shrug (female). And these are not slacker kids, and I have a mostly positive relationship with most of them.

So the idea that the high GPA in bio required at one state U in NJ is somehow a widespread phenomenon shutting solid but not spectacular kids out of a college education- color me skeptical.

I do wish though that the helicoptering or tiger parenting phenom were driving some actual and systemic changes in public K-12 education- and that I’m not seeing. Taking the AP Euro class (which was even hard and rigorous when Blossom took it back in the dark ages) and adding another two hours of homework a night does not make for educational rigor. Telling kids that unless you have a 3.8 GPA in algebra that you won’t be allowed to take Calc as a senior-- the kind of gate-keeping that happens when a HS is trying to give the illusion of rigor by reducing the number of resources it needs to devote to math education- isn’t rigor, or quality improvement.

I was in dummy math most of my education- and once I saw math taught properly with my own kids (the great math teachers teaching the low and middle sections, not reserved for the top kids) I realized I’d been cheated.

But this helicoptering and tiger parenting doesn’t seem to be having an impact. I think that’s the sad part. The fact that an otherwise healthy kid who is a strong swimmer isn’t making the varsity team as a senior- I can’t get exercised over that. Sorry- I don’t think that’s the national tragedy facing K-12 education.

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I enjoyed this comment very much @gettingschooled

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I actually didn’t mean the issue is solely the presence of immigrants. There are other challenges in NJ. For the record, DH was raised there and had plenty of complaints about the school situation, both historical and current.

But, right, there is some explanation going on, not just blaming. Different areas face different particulars and sometimes, oddities.

It’s not really who got into swim at 3. (In the first example given, the family was into swim.) It’s how the energies (the kid’s or the parents’) were focused, sometimes laser focused. Lots of kids start Suzuki early, not all go on to multiple hours of daily practice- or even continue lessons, much less go for orchestra.

In some areas, lots of hs kids do swoop up the opportunities, get internships or that hospital work, the numbers sometimes precluding others from getting their shot. Many of the opps then do become highly competitive. When parents are behind this, it doesn’t just up the ante for kids, it ups it for parents like GFG, who have to go out and find something right. You have to balance some of this with the fact that other, less competitive areas may not even have these opportunities, in the first place.

Gfg, D2 had losses, too, some of them outright, some due to favoritism shown others. Some still burn her, 5 years later. You’re right, she may have never gotten into that orchestra, at all. Each of us has our snapshot and with many of our kids being out of hs now, ours is different than what you’re facing.

We can commiserate with you. But, sorry for this, any parent facing this has to find what they can for their kids. We aren’t saying it’s easy. We’re saying, keep trying.

I know that’s annoying, but I don’t know what else we can suggest, when a parent is involved, does care, doesn’t want their kid left behind.

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No, it’s not a national catastrophe if someone doesn’t make the high school swim team, but that doesn’t mean kids and parents don’t want it very, very much. We can’t live our days purposefully if we behave as if nothing matters unless it’s a life or death situation, though that’s a convenient way for some to pooh-pooh the situation. There’s no way this board would have become such a heavily trafficked place if a whole lot of people didn’t care about high school and college success.

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Blossom, GFG also needs something affordable. When the local public goes off the table as a back-up- whether because local competition made it so or the issues with lack of competitiveness at my state U- it does mean a lot of additional work to find the right matches, in opportunity, admissions chances, and the right finaid. That ordinary safety is gone.

On CC, we’re so used to this “work,” that we can forget what a pita it is. Double, when there are financial challenges.

And when you see something in your kid and have an idea of what sorts of colleges might be an empowering match, then see they expect some level of ECs, add that pain.

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Another issue to consider is what actually happens for the good but not top student at a very strong public high school who gets shut out of the flagship and second best public. I know of 3 cases of kids from higher-ranked high schools than ours for whom that happened. So, they went to the private colleges that gave them the best merit aid, which seemed like a reasonable alternative and one CCers would suggest. In all three cases, though, the kids told their parents that college was far easier than their high school. (If you want specifics, I’ll provide one: Marist. Could give more, but I’d risk offending more people that way who kids may be attending.) That does not equate to not being able to learn something new, but I would not be happy as a parent if that were my child’s experience.

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just to clear a misconception here. TCNJ IS THE FLAGSHIP UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOL in NJ. Bloomberg ranks it #63 in the nation vs Rutgers NB #118 and Newark #128. HAd to get that straightend out. :slight_smile:

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undergraduate business school.

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here’s a little something no one seems to want to mention about so-called heliocopter parenting. IT WORKS.!
That’s right, we talk about it because the helio parent in many many situations gets the results we all would want for our kids. That is they are 100% on top of their kids, pushing and proding them as well as all those with any influence on their children. Tiger moms, helio parents , call it whatever you want but the facts are they put tremendous effort into
their children and they demand tremendous results. And they freakin get them ! Maybe rather than complaining and labeling, or finger pointing and blaming immigration we second, third generation Americans should try laying off the head pats, and “good job Johnny” and participation trophies and just focus on preparing these kids for the a long tough
competitive life? Yes, i get annoyed when is see an entire ethnic group fill all the spots on the academic teams and such. Or when i hear a group just finished a $10k+ intensive SAT super secret program and all got upwards of 2200’s.
But i am annoyed at myself for not knowing of such things. Facts are facts, helioparenting works and the no matter what the so-called experts say we all see the results time and time agian. Those kids get high scores and the top schools regularly admit them. Do your child a favor and ignore the next expert that even slightly suggest you “stay out of the process”.

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TCNJ is higher ranked, but is a small, LAC-sized school of only 6,400 students. No one considers it the flagship.

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Flagship is more than a media ranking of some dept.

“The College Board, for example, defines flagship universities as the best-known institutions in the state, noting that they were generally the first to be established and are frequently the largest and most selective, as well as the most research-intensive public universities.These schools are often land-grant, sea-grant, or space-grant research universities.”

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Helicoptering works except when it doesn’t. Talk to any MD who treats eating disorders, depression, anxiety, suicidal behavior/ideation or drug abuse with an affluent teenage patient roster and treat yourself to the underbelly of helicoptering.

Some kids are wired to be compliant, take direction, do what’s expected of them. Another kid- born into a family of engineers or doctors or what-not is wired to dance or paint or bake fancy pastry. It’s wonderful to look at the kid who is good at math and was pushed to improve the 750 SAT Math to an 800. It’s sad to see his or her sibling who has repeatedly been prodded to improve a 500 math SAT to that 800 (never going to happen) and to be disparaged for not meeting parental expectations.

It is so easy to helicopter a kid who does what you tell them to do. Not so nice otherwise.

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“Staying out of the process” is not an accurate description for good parenting. Parents still have to participate, but with the goal of preparing the student to handle things on their own, not swooping in and doing it for them at every bump in the road.

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Indeed! If college admissions can differenciate manufactured ability from genuine one, no one would be helicoptering. It looks to me admissions should look at their metric to better distinguish authenticity rather than pointing fingers at parents. I’d like to ask, “Why did you accept a kid who had to call his parents unable to deal with a heavy package?” They probably rejected kids who could handle all that and would have done well at academics, too.

I am seeing something similar in grad school admissions. In STEM, about half of admissions go to asian students making it highly competitive for domestic students. Interestingly, a few programs that list dissertations show only about a third to fourth are asian students. This may be an oversimplification but on the face of it, grad school admissions are not doing their job well and admit students who look good on paper but lack something to finish the program while rejecting some who may not look stellar on paper but may have finished the program successfully.

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Affluent kids actually get mental health care rather than slipping into drug abuse, problem behavior, crime as teenagers.

If we define helicoptering as enabling your child’s talents and interests, whether cello, swimming, art, dance, or baking, then your second paragraph issues go away. if you are forcing your agenda on your child, even if they are compliant and getting a 700 on an SAT, there is a basic breach of trust and your being there for your child (not some superstar wannabe like child 1 or neighbor’s kid at Harvard med). That could be really erosive and probably damaging to more kids than just the ones who fall apart in visible ways.

I also am a bit confused. If your child cannot compete in a timed sport in your high school, then swimming should not be their “hook” (recruitment or even interest would consist of beating a county time). If your child is not taking APs and not getting As because it is too hard, they are not going to do well at that flagship (or even higher school). You do realize that the competition in say Rutgers biology classes is going to be lots of kids with 14 APs, including a 5 in AP bio and AP chem and AP calc. If you are drifting to the bottom 25% of the class, this may really put your kid in a bad place, whereas at Montclair State they could be A students. learn all the at bio, and maybe transfer. The 50% stats for Rutgers and TCNJ are pretty low on the low side, meaning that ACT scores are not always predicting success in say biology or other limited enrollment programs.

Even SAT prep requires learning basic math and vocabulary, AP classes start teaching college level concepts and work habits that will really help your child in college. Those cello lessons lead to mastery, whether in chair 1 or 19.

The limited enrollment programs should allow transfers in for kids who overachieve in college and move to the upper 25% of the class, otherwise that is punative.

I think you have to put this in real terms for your child. If they are not willing to work harder at something, they will be at Montclair state or a similar private school or they and you will have to work and take on debt to get into a less selective school with high EFC (the free or very reduced price schools are often that for a reason, if you are getting a top scholarship, you will be bored freshman year, but there are worse things to happen). Then to catch up, they will really have to hit some home runs in that school and move back into the flagship competitive category.

Or maybe you are helicoptering and your child is on the right track, going to a second or third tier school, working at the pace they are willing to work, and achieving what they need or want to achieve (and they may be perfectly happy in your basement until they are 30). I don’t know if that is a terrible outcome, if your basement is pretty nice and you keep a good relationship with your kids. By 30, they have a decent income., marry, have kids, and repeat. Maybe the grandchildren will want to take a dozen APs and go to HYPS.

And based on meeting a lot of people over a lifetime, every child has something they can make special, and only 10% are in the obvious teams or activities in HS. Go out in the community and world and find something for them to do, write a good common app essay …

Regarding NJ schools, if your child is in a competitive HS in NJ, they are getting a good free public education, which is a fantastic deal. If they go to one of the top 5 colleges in NJ, they can build a career with that degree. NJ taxpayers defunded both their K-12 schools and Rutgers in the 1980s … if you need better, you will need to elect people who will build Rutgers to status of say UMd and fund some more options like TCNJ or Rowan or make Montclair State a top 150 school.

Not being happy at getting a large hardworking Asian and other immigrant population moving into your state also seems shortsighted, hardworking people who value education are a fantastic economic engine that say ND will envy.