I’m not trying to win points, JustOneDad; I’m just sharing opinions and anecdotes like everyone else. Or did I miss your statistics on adult willingness to do household chores relative to childhood chore participation?
Stones3: I was looking at that particular ranking and the student faculty ratio, class size and some others penalized Rutgers as larger. Not trying to put down TCNJ, both are very good colleges, but you seemed to have something against Rutgers.
I think chores and level of tidiness in a home has much more to do with personality/genetics than with how neat a parent was or how many chores a kid had to do during childhood. There are those that grew up in a home that had nothing out of place who now like the lived in, messy look and others that continue the nothing out of place look. And vice versa - a kid with parents who never did chores grows up to have an immaculate house. I see it in my extended family and among friends whose parents I have known. I bet there is a study on this somewhere.
Agreed though from my observations of relatives and friends’ families…it’s probably more personality and socialization with one’s peer group.
In one extended family group, the aunt and uncle were absolute neatniks who expected their kids to keep nearly everything in its place so their home was very neat and pleasant for social party guests…but to some of us had much more of a sterile feeling of being in a museum exhibit than a real home.
Also, while their daughters continued the practice in their own homes and families…albeit in a less strict manner, their son ended up being such a slob well into his late twenties that one of our grandparents evicted him from one of her condo units despite the fact he was one of her favorite grandkids. Part of this was not only due to personality differences, but also gender socialization as it’s somewhat true males are allowed by many corners of society to get away with a lot more.
In my childhood/adolescent male peer group, there was a machismo competition to see who could withstand living/putting up with the most slobbiness/messes/grossness. Some older kids would go so far as to stick live roaches or other large living bugs right in our faces to see if we’d show ourselves up by exhibiting squimishness and thus, prove we were “weak” and “unmasculine”.
Boys/young men who were excessive neatniks were considered feminine and “kiss ups” as desiring neatness was considered “feminine” and they were viewed as being “too obedient” to parents/authority figures to be “truly macho”. And that’s not even getting into the homophobic insults that were common in the far more gritty and less enlightened 1980’s US landscape.
And large parts of this mentality wasn’t limited to the gritty urban neighborhood I grew up in as a younger friend* who grew up in a well-off suburban town in the NE insisted on believing I had a female roommate in a post-college apt because the room in question was not only exceedingly neat and orderly, but also color coordinated with bright colors. That is…until the roommate came into the apt and walked into that very room and was very obviously male.
- Older millenial
My daughter didn’t do much housework while she was in high school, but a couple of weeks of dorm crew at school made her into a cleaning whiz.
A 30 year old anecdote to illustrate that the more things change, the more things stay the same: In 1985 I was 4 years out of college and 2 years married. I was visiting my hometown and ran across the mom of a HS friend. She says my old friend had had a tough past year after getting married a year past. I ask what happened? Car accident, health issue, abusive husband? all went through my mind… No, she was unused to and didn’t know how to do anything, not laundry, not basic cooking, not cleaning, not grocery shopping, not paying bills, not buying gas for her car. Her mom said, with something like pride, “she doesn’t know how to do anything, we did everything for her.,”. I was astounded , appalled, a little jealous, incredulous! Ultimately, happy that I knew how to take care of myself. Made a big impression on me as I have told this story before.
Fast forward, my kids know how to take care of themselves, but are much better at cooking than cleaning!
The book- well, I’m sure the author is happy we’re all talking about it. Parenting is the last, great, free form job and I really like that i don’ t have a detailed job description. But, IMO more caring and involvement is better than little of it, so if parents err somewhere I hope they err on the side of more parenting.
Busy top students are certainly learning plenty of discipline and work ethic, only it happens more through their demanding studies and EC’s than through housework. D never cooked a day in her life during high school, but over the summers when she interned away from home and after college graduation she somehow figured it out. It’s not that hard, and even less so nowadays because there are plenty of time-saving, pre-prepared things people can buy if they don’t want to expend much effort in meal prep. D chooses to make beautiful, healthy meals from scratch because she enjoys it. She never did much cleaning either at home, but does that fine now too because she likes a neat apartment.
If you are comfortable being helpless, then you stay helpless. If not, you learn how do what you need to do when you need to do it, whether it be bill paying or filing for taxes or mowing the lawn. For everyone, there’s a first time doing something.
1 Like
Everybody has their own opinion. If some can make money expressing their opinion, good for them! Do we have to take their opinion and change our ways? I do not think so! But again, the next person may think differently. So, go ahead and adjust and let the others do whatever they wish. I do not understand what this discussion is about.
My grandfather worked with his hands as a trades person to earn a meager living and was insistent that his children have a more secure life. I am told he became angry when he saw his children attempting to help out with menial tasks when he thought they should be studying, in preparation for a different life. (My dad actually did work with his hands in the end, but as a surgeon.)
@numbersfun - Interesting story. When I was growing up, I had a list of chores for when I got home from school, to be completed before my mother got home from work. We had family dinners at the same time each night, and I was expected to make the salad, set the table, clear the table, and do the dishes. My mother cooked the main course and desert. I did not think it was fair that my brothers did not have to do any of this, only ask to be excused from the table when they went off to do their homework. We all shoveled snow in the winters. After we went off to college our parents hired people to do this.
It was the same in frazzled H’s house. Even after we were married and before we had children, MIL thought it was unseemly whenever H cleaned or did laundry, and he had no idea of what to do in the kitchen. When I am ill he still does take-out. He says when he retires he might want to learn to cook.
Neither of us does much yard work; we did not grow up doing any of this.
I agree. My kids grew up overseas, accustomed to having maids do ALL the household chores. Even in boarding school, I sprang for paid laundry service.
This past summer before S1 started college, he lived w an adult cousin in the US and worked as a busboy schlepping dirty plates. At his cuz’s apt, S1 had to cook, clean, scrub the toilet, empty cat litter box, do the laundry. He did it all the household grunt work. It wasn’t rocket science.
“Because chores like doing dishes and cleaning toilets do not require much, if any, training and practice. The idea that a normal kid, much less an elite school graduate, will have trouble doing them some day when he has to is ludicrous.”
- It is totally ridiculous to think that a kid who got herself accepted to the college cannot figure out how to wash dishes and which buttons to push on the washer and dryer. I never my kids any of this stupid stuff, more so, I was learning from them new things to cook when they were visiting.
In addition, I have suggested to my D. to make sure to put herself into position to hire a cleaning person (eventually!). I bet that eventually she will. I never cleaned my house, but I hate to live in dirty one, so I have a cleaning person. However, when there were few times to get the renting deposit back, do you believe that I had a trouble cleaning the place? Pretty ridiculous thought! Everybody could do it! Give enough money to a 10 y o kid and he will do it for you also, You will be surprised!
nothing against Rutgers at all. Just tired of people overating it across a large spectrum of majors based on things that their undergraduates will probably never have anything to do with, like for example research. Also the notion that having a terrible D1 Big 10 football team has anything to do with quality of the education and recognition specifically translating into the business world is absurd. Meanwhile TCNJ is way underated here and penalized by those who do not know the differences. TCNJ over the last 20 years has grown superb programs in business, chem/bio, health science, Ed etc… As for penalized, not? They are simply put into another category of national universities that you all some how think mean the undergraduate program is …good. I would argue its the size that is its biggest plus on those list and its the graduate programs, and research grants that help it rank. Meanwhile I dare say 90% of the 35,000 plus students never have anything to do with either. So in fact they avoid the direct comparison of undergraduate vs undergraduate programs comparison directly. Don’t get me wrong , though its a fine school.
Stones- huh?
The distinction between a research university and other institutions of higher learning is not one that folks on CC have made up- it’s the standard Carnegie classification which is useful in order to compare apples to apples.
It does not suggest or imply that the typical student will “do research”- it’s the standard taxonomy. You seem to be missing the point of this discussion.
Quality of education depends on the student and not the place. I know it is politically incorrect to say so. But it is a hard fact that some wise® high school graduates understand. While most of their classmates chase some better education at some Ivy / Elite, they are simply ready to work hard at any place to achieve their goals of great education and they do!. Proven time and again! The name of college may be important for some majors, but for the most of them, what student achieved while at college (any college!) will determine the student future and not the name of the college.
Well, the quality of education DOES depend on the place, but what is absorbed depends on the student.
Helicopter Parents > Boomerang Kids
The funny thing about raising them is you really don’t know how they will function as young adults until they hit that stage. And then some, since life continues and still brings challenges. I think the wise path is to cover numerous bases. Among various lessons, we taught ours how to regroup after a loss, how to evaluate the next best options and keep moving. That can be lost when there’s always someone doing for them, picking them up, filling in the blanks, blaming someone else.
Some kids are fine. But I believe in a little CYA.
Certainly if a kid goes to a less well regarded college AND is at the very top of the class, he or she will probably be able to achieve whatever they want. However, the kid that goes to a less well regarded college and is not at the top of the class will have less opportunities than one that goes to a top college and is not at the top of the class. Meaning, a kid with a B average from Princeton will be more likely to get into med school/law school/ grad school/great first job than a kid with a B average at Miami (or other similar school). That is not to say that the B student from Miami will not be successful, but it may be a longer path. Not every wise kid that chooses the less competitive school is able to get straight As and obtain every research and honors opportunity.
"a kid with a B average from Princeton " will not get into single Medical School in the USA. A kid with college GPA of at least 3.7 at the lowest of the lowest ranked college will get accepted to several Medical schools if applied smartly. Given that both had a decent and comparable MCAT score and completed other requirements. In fact, some of D’s Med. School classmates who attended at Ivy / Elites, later regretted that they did. Going to Ivy / Elite colleges as pre-meds did not provide them with any advantages at being accepted to Med. School as well as with academics at medical school. They wished that they saved family resources for Medical School tuition. It did not provide them with any advantages matching to the very selective specialties either.
1 Like
"Not every wise kid that chooses the less competitive school is able to get straight As and obtain every research and honors opportunity. " - Why not? What is an obstacle? I know tons of kids who did just that, including my own D. All they needed was a great desire to work hard, to never pass any opportunity to be helpful to others and they had a “red carpet” in front of them…
Agree that a Princeton undergrad with a 3.0 GPA isn’t likely to be accepted to any AMA med school all else being equal. However, I have heard from some med school Profs…including one involved in med school admissions that having done undergrad from an HYP level elite can provide someone on the borderline regarding stats a tip in favor of admission. Granted, that borderline means having a GPA of around a 3.5-3.6…not 3.0.
Also, I’ve known of several friends and HS classmates with 3.7-3.9+ GPAs and high MCATs (nearing/exceeding 40/45) from strong pre-med undergrads ranging from SUNY Buffalo to Berkeley who needed to apply 4-5 times in a row before they were accepted to several AMA med schools including some elite ones like UChicago simply because the competition even among such strong applicants was so keen and there weren’t enough places in that particular application cycle. Some of those med school Profs admitted that sometimes strong med school applicants could be rejected simply because they ran out of open seats for the incoming class and the only thing to do is to strengthen one’s application, apply again the next year, and hope one has better luck.