<p>berry, I spelled out the heart of the issue very clearly. You missed it.</p>
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<p>We didnât miss it - we disagree with it. You are entitled to your views. We donât share them. Our views match berryâs far more than they do yours. We left the rat race and love our life now. Thereâs no way weâd go back nor encourage our kids to start in it.</p>
<p>phear me - au contraire - I did not miss your point, I just happen to disagree with it and believe you are far off the mark. Again, at this point, I think it is best we simply agree to disagree</p>
<p>To say one isnât after power and prestige is akin to saying one isnât after academic/professional success. Neither one is causal to the other, but they are all caused by the same thing.</p>
<p>It would be like saying, âI want exercise to be healthier, but I donât care about being bigger, faster, or stronger.â Well, your goal may be to get healthier, but lifting weights and running is going to make you bigger, faster,and stronger because they are caused by the same things. </p>
<p>Similarly, if your goal is academic/professional success but you specifically preclude things that would garner money and prestige, youâre hinering yoursef because they are all caused by the same thing. </p>
<p>My experience, once again, is that people who deny the fact that academic pedigree matters (not exahaustively, not deterministically, but rather influentially) to the tragectory of oneâs success in most fields is either telling themselves a comforting lie to excuse their own lack of pedigree or they have a very low view/awareness of what success is. I used to think $60k a year was a great professional success, until I saw 27 year olds making $500k per year. Similarly, one may think being a lab tech is a great success, until they see someone younger running the lab. </p>
<p>In my experience, the one great flaw of Christian education is that it teaches students to accept mediocrity in their ambitions. Much lip service is paid to, âmoney/prestige etc doesnât matterâ but if youâre going to do the work anyways, isnât it common sense to be as influential as possible? Thatâs like saying, âI am going to practice every day but winning doesnât matter so I wonât practice as best as I can.â If youâre going to go out there and compete, you might as well win.</p>
<p>phear me⊠where did yu get your projection figure of 1/3 will have college degrees? I just donât see that</p>
<p><a href=âhttp://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/hiedfuture/reports/equity.pdf[/url]â>http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/hiedfuture/reports/equity.pdf</a></p>
<p>Regarding education statistics:</p>
<p>[Coming</a> to Our Senses Report U.S. Must Ensure 55 Percent of Americans Earn Postsecondary Degree by 2025 or Risk World Standing](<a href=âCollege Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Toolsâ>College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools)
[News:</a> Looking Toward 2025 - Inside Higher Ed](<a href=âhttp://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/12/11/report]News:â>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/12/11/report)
[US</a> Census Press Releases](<a href=âhttp://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/004214.html]USâ>http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/004214.html)</p>
<p>For the record, 28% of Americans over the age of 25 have a bachelorâs degree NOW. 33% isnât really all that far away.</p>
<p>Phear me - to each our own. Weâve been in the (upper) rat race and discovered it wasnât for us. We enjoy life FAR more now that weâre out of it. Our kids have also seen it - and wonder why it appeals to anyone. Thereâs a niche for everyone. You can keep your quest for money and prestige - and your words can influence anyone on here that might want those for their lives.</p>
<p>I think Iâve outlined whatâs on the table so people can make informed choices about what they are losing, and gaining, in the college selection process. </p>
<p>I very sincerely wish you and your children the greatest success Creekland.</p>
<p>
Actually, the 28% figure is already out of date. It was based on 2004 data.</p>
<p>Based on more recent 2008 data, the Census Bureau has already [bumped</a> up](<a href=âhttp://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/013618.html]bumpedâ>http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/013618.html) the number to 29%. </p>
<p>If that seems unrealistic to you, note that it is a national average; the numbers in your community could be quite a bit higher or lower, depending on your specific state and/or metro area. </p>
<p>
In some parts of the country, itâs already here. The most up-to-date [url=<a href=âhttp://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/education/cps2006/tab13.xls]statewide[/urlâ>http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/education/cps2006/tab13.xls]statewide[/url</a>] values, for 2006, indicate that several states have already passed the 33% level, including CO, CT, DC, MD, MA, MN, NJ, and VT. The highest values were in MA (40.4 % of residents 25 or older held a bachelorâs degree) and DC (49.7 %).</p>
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<p>Same thing here. It will all depend on how one defines âsuccess.â By our definition (contentment and enjoyment of life while owning our own successful business), weâre there. My boys will have no problem with it. If one defines it by Ivy prestige then theyâll need to consider your path.</p>
<p>My oldest is probably leaning toward Covenant as they do have the best option for his major with regards from people doing what he wants to do. My middle son will be taking the PSAT next month as a sophomore. It will surprise me if he doesnât score high enough for National Merit this year (though I know heâll need to take it as a Junior to get it). I feel certain weâll get oodles of info from potential pre-med undergrad places to check out and will most likely be looking for one offering a free ride with a good grad school acceptance rate⊠and eastern half of the US. There will be far more options than my oldest has. My youngest is 8th grade⊠who knows for him? Heâs got time. Weâll let him finish Algebra first.</p>
<p>My time on this board is probably close to finished and I do thank everyone for their thoughts and the conversation - even if we hijacked a thread or two.</p>
<p>"Similarly, if your goal is academic/professional success but you specifically preclude things that would garner money and prestige, youâre hinering yoursef because they are all caused by the same thing. "</p>
<p>phear me - sorry, but again IMO you are way off base here. </p>
<p>First, professional success is not simply tied to how much money one makes and the prestige of the University one graduated from. If you believe that, you have a very simplistic, distorted view of the world. </p>
<p>Second, as I have mentioned, I did not graduate from a ânameâ prestige college. And yet there I was making well over your oft quoted $500K a year as Vice President for a well known national firm. However, after deciding there was much more to life than simply making money, I took some time off and now work in the education field. While still maing a comfortable living, it does not come close to what I earned previously. But yet I am even more successful in my new role, I have more time to spend with my family and enjoying life. To believe as you do that I would be less successful in my new role vs my old one simply because the size of my paycheck has been reduced is very simplistic and incorrect thinking.</p>
<p>berry, </p>
<p>I have said time and time again that not having a top pedigree isnât a deterministic factor, but that many industries will be effectively off limits without one and a steep career trajectory will be easier to obtain with one. </p>
<p>The best way to make money is always to have your own company, but thatâs not the argument I am making. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I did not equate professional success with money, but made an argument for how they are highly correlated. As I said before, you continue to argue against a straw man, and not the actual argument I am making. I simply said, as one point in my argument, that prestige and income can be viewed as a proxy for professional success. </p>
<p>Steve Jobs may have had a goal just to make a great product, or change the world through the personal computer, but notice how he got rich doing it even if that wasnât his goal? THATâs the point Iâm making âŠ</p>
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<p>This is only true if one puts a high value on prestige and income as you do. I know plenty of people who are content and successful with life who have neither plentiful money nor worldly prestige. I also know plenty who have oodles of money and/or prestige who are never content. They are always chasing something more. I do not see a high correlation at all between the two with my definition of success (which is probably best boiled down to contentment and enjoyment with life - owning a successful business isnât necessary for everyone).</p>
<p>Materialism and fame is not the right path for everyone. Itâs probably not the right path for most people seeking Christian colleges. However, your views are good to have on here so that anyone who shares your views can have your advice. One needs to know themselves and their goals.</p>
<p>For what itâs worth, I also know plenty with oodles of money and contentment - none have prestige by Ivy standards nor do they seem jealous or wishful that they had chosen a different path. </p>
<p>As stated before - to each our own.</p>
<p>Phear me - ok, one final time.</p>
<p>now you say âFurthermore, I did not equate professional success with moneyâ</p>
<p>And yet in post 18, you said âI used the money as an indicator of success, because companies pay you what youâre worth.â</p>
<p>Hmmmmmmmm. Seems like you are contradicting yourself once again.</p>
<p>In the end, i believe the whole premise of your argument on this thread is based on this quote which you posted in post 14:</p>
<p>âMy chose to study philosophy/theology at a Christian university has cost my professional life dearly, and even with masters degrees from top universities (such as MIT) most of the top firms in my field still wonât take a serious look at me because they ONLY take students from top grad/undergrad.â</p>
<p>So in essence because you have not achieved a high salary nor professional success, which you attribute to your attending a Christian University, you seem to believe the same will hold true for everyone else. Sorry, but I clearly disagree</p>
<p>I have to jump in here because I find âphearâsâ argument deeply disturbing. Forgive me for my bluntness, but he is either narcissistic (conflating his own world view with THE world view) or seriously deluded. Believe me, there are plenty of people - like me - who believe that success has only minimally to do with money or power (in its crude sense). To use just one small example, there are many artists out there - I mean, visual, performing, writers, musicians, etc. - who are intensely successful and live their lives with joy and meaning ⊠and make (gasp!) less than $100,000 or less than $50,000. Many many. In Phearâs own world, he is probably surrounded by people who are always desperately trying to out-trump the other with bigger and better toys/phallic symbols so they can thump themselves on the chest and say, âGosh, Iâm powerful! Look at me! Be envious!â
And you know what? Thatâs fine if thatâs what they want to do. But to imagine that everyone is just like them, or if theyâre not, theyâre failures, would be insulting if it werenât so laughably ridiculous. Itâs a big world out there. There are so many ways to live. How do you want to live your life/</p>
<p>Hovering,</p>
<p>Is this what we are now? Are we a body that contents itself with mediocrity while we avoid personal responsibility for every failure and second place finish by comforting ourselves with a false fatalism that says, âOh, it must have been Godâs will.â Such trite and superficial nonsense dominates western evangelical thinking to the severe handicap and detriment of the persuasiveness and intellectual rigor of the modern american community. Christians are taught that power and money and influence are âbadâ and that the pursuit of âhigherâ goals like art, or worship, or pastoring are superior. The result? The church skews strongly towards a passive, small, and overly feminine culture with a strong tendency to deride and reject the strong, blunt, CEO type personalities that play a vital role in the body of Christ. It also precludes itself to your type of thinking, âPhear thinks everyone should have better toys and phallic symbols because he MUST need to impress us because why else would he pursue money?â Such an attitude is the picture of grace and love - why canât we all be more like your shining example of Philippians chapter 2?</p>
<p>What if I told you that 50% of my income goes to Samaritans Purse and hundreds of children were prevented from starving because of my financial success? Or what if you found out that I paid for a new church building for my congregation? Or that I used my influence to help elect a pro-life conservative to congress? I am NOT saying I did those things, but maybe some people pursue excellence, and the corresponding money and power and influence, for the right reasons. Perhaps all of us who have been blessed with a college education should be pursuing excellence within the field that God has called us to so our ability to influence our chosen fields for the kingdom of Christ is maximized. With this in mind, my point still stands that in that in choosing to attend a less prestigious university, a student is also choosing to flatten their professional trajectory in many fields. This isnât true for every field, i.e. teaching children or nursing, but it is true for a great many fields and that fact cannot and should not be ignored. </p>
<p>I will explain again, since there seems to be quite a bit of confusion over the definition of the word âproxyâ that in the absence of objectivity, it makes sense to use income as a proxy for success in most industries. Itâs not a perfect measure, but itâs hard to think of someone really successful in their field that isnât well compensated. Iâm willing to entertain counterexamples if you have them. Lets even use your example of an artist. If the artist is an important figure influencing her field, her paintings will command a substantial premium. For example, Thomas Kinkaid. </p>
<p>As a final note, I find your insults, i.e. âhe must be narcissistic or deludedâ to be shortsighted and in poor taste before our Father. If this drivel represents your best efforts at making an argument, then you have succeeded in making the case for a prestigious education far better than I ever could alone. </p>
<p>Berry Berry, </p>
<p>You said, âSo in essence because you have not achieved a high salary nor professional success, which you attribute to your attending a Christian University, you seem to believe the same will hold true for everyone else. Sorry, but I clearly disagree.â</p>
<p>I find it interesting how people on message boards, and sadly particularly Christians, have a tendency to suddenly become professional psychics and psychologists. Given such an effort you are, rather predictably, quite wrong. This thread isnât and shouldnât be about me, but I will quell your rhetoric none the less. I have achieved a high salary (although, to be clear, most people who do well financially are rewarded on a performance based incentive, such as bonus or stock options, not salary) and a high level of professional success (relative to where Iâm at in life). I will also say that I am in private equity and am in the top 2% of earners in this country. I am also still a couple years shy of 30, so thereâs a long way to go yet. I have achieved a relatively high level of success despite having gone to a Christian university. But I can tell you that during my interview, I was asked point blank, âDo you regret your choice of undergrad.â The truth is that I donât, but if I hadnât the luxury of going to USC and MIT for grad school, an opportunity many students at Christian universities wonât have, the private equity door would have NEVER been opened to me. Christian students deserve to know what they are giving up when choosing to attend a religious university as well as what they are gaining. Finally, whether or not I had achieved this level of success is irrelevant to the validity of my arguments (ad hominem fallacy). </p>
<p>A note for the record: Iâm not just complaining about this. Iâve volunteered hundreds of hours and much of my own money working with (and sometimes against) my alma mater to improve the perception of, and the final product offered by, one of the leading universities. Academic rigor, prestige, and a Christian foundation should not be mutually exclusive concepts. However, the harsh reality is that Christian students are giving up a good measure of their work force opportunity in many fields by choosing to attend an evangelical university, and they deserve to go into that choice with eyes open. All the childish attacks against me arenât going to change that truth and they certainly arenât going to please God. </p>
<p>If I have caused offense to anyone, I apologize. But I will not apologize for the truth. Iâd like to think we are a generation that will do more than simply bury our talents in the sand âŠ</p>
<p>Thomas Kinkaidâa great example of fraudâin his business dealings as well as his âartâ.</p>
<p>[Christian</a> News Report: Thomas Kinkade: Fraud Allegations](<a href=âhttp://christiannewsreport.blogspot.com/2009/06/thomas-kinkade-fraud-allegations.html]Christianâ>Christian News Report: Thomas Kinkade: Fraud Allegations)</p>
<p>Perhaps Vincent Van Gogh is a better example. Never sold a painting, but is now in every major museum in the world.</p>
<p>I have no bones in this Baylor discussion (looking for info for a friend), but the T Kinkade allusion was too priceless to ignore.</p>
<p>phear me - once again you contradict yourself with your response and your earlier statements, but that is nothing new. At this point, we should move on and again, simply agree to disagree</p>
<p>musicamusica,</p>
<p>A group of financially subpar Christians complaining because their faulty investment went sour? Why am I not surprised? I confess that Kinkaid was the only Christian artist I could think of - perhaps my error serves as a testament to the sorry state of Christian influence (outside of a few athletes) in this country. I stand corrected for my faulty use of Kinkaid as an example of influence. </p>
<p>berryberry61,</p>
<p>I agree that we should let things go. The thread more than speaks for itself and at this point thereâs little to be gained by rehashing the same arguments.</p>
<p>Is now the time to mention that even with College Confidential the advice is that it doesnât matter which undergrad school one chooses if one is looking to go pre-med? Check out the links in the FAQ postâŠ</p>
<p><a href=âhttp://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/377780-premed-forum-faqs-read-first.html[/url]â>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/377780-premed-forum-faqs-read-first.html</a></p>
<p>This link probably hashes it out the best (from above link):</p>
<p><a href=âhttp://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/366517-age-old-question-2.html[/url]â>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/366517-age-old-question-2.html</a></p>
<p>And this post sums it up (more or less) for those not wanting to click on and wade through links:</p>
<hr>
<p>I was on the admissions commitee of one of the aforementioned medical schools, and currently work at another one. Top medical schools draw disproportionately from top undergraduate colleges since the top students from those schools apply there. It only makes sense that they would be well represented. Additionally, there may be less students of similar caliber applying from other schools-the applicant pool is not as deep. On the other hand, top medical schools do not need to fill their class with Ivy Leaguers to boost their prestige so they can afford to take the best wherever they may be. In fact, top medical schools are looking for wide representation at many different colleges whether they be little known schools in the deep South or religious colleges or large state schools with a heterogenous student body with a wide range in academic capabilities. A top student from such a school, provided he/she has a strong record and MCAT scores, may actually stand out from the crowd and be interviewed. There will not be many other applicants (sometimes none) from their school. In contrast, we might receive 30 applications each from places like Penn and Princeton but decide to interview only a third of them. Those odds are certainly better than the general applicant pool but the advantage does not apply to the individual applicant with similar credentials who went to school elsewhere and stands out.</p>
<h2>In contrast to your first points, I think going to a higher ranked college may make more of a difference when applying to a lower ranked medical school. In order to boost prestige (as well as to get the best available students), they may take an Ivy-leaguer or top 10 LAC student with say a 3.3 GPA over a strong student from a state school with say a 3.7 average. They also may decide to take a certain number from particular Ivy League Schools in order to cultivate a positive relationship. For example, I saw that in a recent year, 11 out of 100 or so incoming students at Boston University graduated from Brown.</h2>
<p>What matters is EXACTLY what I have been told by workers in the field⊠Maybe I feel better about the advice I might find here for my middle son after allâŠ</p>
<p>Heâll be getting oodles of info from potential choices after he takes the PSAT in a couple of weeks. His scores on practice tests are in the National Merit range even as a sophomore and I canât see him declining with one more year to go. Weâll be whittling from the choices over time - looking for Eastern half of the US AND a free ride or close to it. It may be Christian or not - heâll decide that with visits, etc.</p>
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<p>Other than academia and maybe California, Iâm having a tough time figuring out a field where this applies for undergrad. I know some people at the top of their fields locally who have built âstuffâ for churches and donated to Samaritanâs Purse, etc, without the pedigree thatâs supposedly needed. Heck, one didnât even go to college period - just straight into business. Iâm certainly not advocating that route nor choosing it for my sons, but I feel the same way about elite/expensive colleges. Thereâs only âvalueâ in them (for undergrad) if one believes there is. To us, the debt load is just not worth it when there are other, better, options.</p>