gays @ ND

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
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<p>
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With all due respect, of course Irish is judging. He's telling others that their way of being Catholic isn't "honest" if it's different from his way. A truly non-judgmental person practices his religion as he sees fit and respects the right of others to do the same.

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<p>You are quick to say I am, but think about this. Doesn't judging require me to judge an individual? Did I tell anyone here they were not a good Catholic? What I am saying is that people who call themselves Catholic, by doing so, are saying they agree with the beliefs of the Catholic faith. I am wondering if this is not an accurate thing for some people to do, but I am judging no one directly because I am not the one to say. That is for the person and their conscience. For the record, I have wondered before if I should call myself Catholic.</p>

<p>I do practice my religion as I see fit and allow others to do the same, I just question what they call themselves. If you professed yourself Catholic but believed in many gods, I would question that as well. I am NOT saying it is wrong, I am saying it is NOT Catholic. Not being Catholic doesn't have to be bad, you are the one inferring that it is.</p>

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And no one on the board is talking about "encouraging" or "promoting" homosexual activity any more than pro-choice Catholics are "promoting" abortion.

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Quite simply there is no such thing as a pro-choice Catholic in my mind. You are going to see this as judging but look at the Church's teachings on abortion. It simply is impossible to be in communion and be pro-choice. </p>

<p>I agree we should be accepting of gays and lesbians, as I said in my post. However, the Catholic Church teaches that we cannot be accepting of the lifestyle. Again, I am in no way condemning any person who is accepting of the lifestyle, rather merely pointing out how their view may conflict with the Church.</p>

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<p>Irish is simply expressing his beliefs. For people who are telling us we should accept other beliefs and alternative lifestyles, you are very quick to judge and dismiss a conservative voice. As Catholics who follow the catechism, we CANNOT ACCEPT homosexual actions. This is not a judgment, this is a fact. I am not saying anyone is a terrible person if they don't follow the Catechism exactly, I CANNOT make that judgment, because, obviously, I have my own flaws. I believe in certain things, and because of that, I must believe that things that contradict my views are wrong. My beliefs may change if someone can provide me with a strong argument, and I will respect your right to have your own beliefs. But I reserve the right to believe that there is a right and that there is a wrong. I cannot judge an individual, but I also cannot condone behavior that I believe is wrong.</p>

<p>To caliboi- I hope you don't take the negative views of some of the earlier parent posters on this board as the views of the student body of ND, because, for the most part, students here will not judge you. However, you must be prepared to accept the fact that there will be people who will accept you and be compassionate, but will not condone a homosexual lifestyle. You also have to be able to respect them and their beliefs, even if you don't ACCEPT their beliefs. If you can't do this, then find another school. If you can agree to disagree, you will get along just fine here.</p>

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<p>Although somewhat silly, i think it is important to not the actual definition of the word Catholic, because some of you may be suprised:</p>

<ol>
<li>broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.<br></li>
<li>universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>I know I know, words have always changed and shifted in meaning, but I think its ironic for those who see catholicism as black and white, sinners versus non sinners, etc. The term "buffet catholics" makes me cringe, simply because it shuns those who use their freedom of thought, given by God, to think on their own. Personally, i consider myself Catholic because I respect and admire its overall views on how to live life.</p>

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<p>I understand what you mean, but you can argue semantics with a lot of different things. For instance, didn't conservatives and liberals used to be the opposite of what they are now? I digress, but word meaning is great, my name means Who Is Like God, but there is more than just the dictionary definition of a word.</p>

<p>I really don't want to reduce Catholicism down to the meaning of the word because it is a beautiful faith with a beautiful tradition. Yes, there have been potholes, but the Catholic Church has played such a central role throughout all of history. Heck, even recently think about the impact Pope John Paul II made on the world. </p>

<p>To call yourself Catholic unites you with that beautiful tradition and can bring a lot of grace, but as with every benefit there are responsibilities. Our responsibility, if we are to be Catholic, is to in fact be Catholic. We have a wonderful book called the Catechism of the Catholic Church that not only tells us the beliefs of the Church but also why they are the beliefs of the Church with scripture passages and references to tradition. It is my belief that every Catholic should read the Catechism, because it is what you are identifying yourself with by calling yourself Catholic.</p>

<p>You don't have to agree with everything, but there are core beliefs which you must hold if you are going to be Catholic (for instance, being against abortion). This is a defining belief, much like there are defining body parts that identify your sex...you either are or you aren't, you know? I don't want to sound judgmental or blunt, but it just is. </p>

<p>I do believe we should have sympathies to all and be broad minded, as the definition says, but that doesn't mean that every action we must accept. I don't have to be accepting of a murderer to be Catholic, you know?</p>

<p>Anyway, I am rambling and have to get back to homework, but feel free to respond...I like thinking about these issues.</p>

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<p>If we're going to play word games, I should point out the huge difference between "catholic" and "Catholic" </p>

<p>"1 a often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the church universal b often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it c capitalized : ROMAN CATHOLIC"---></p>

<p>"Main Entry: 2Roman Catholic
Function: adjective
: of, relating to, or being a Christian church having a hierarchy of priests and bishops under the pope, a liturgy centered in the Mass, veneration of the Virgin Mary and saints, clerical celibacy, and a body of dogma* including transubstantiation and papal infallibility"</p>

<p>*That dogma also includes many other beliefs. For a more complete description, you can refer to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church</p>

<p>The Catholic church may have some "catholic" goals: it is indeed of interest to all and has a universal message. However, it is the job of the people to follow the church, not the church's job to conform to each of its members. Because then the message is no longer universal, it is just vague...</p>

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<p>Irish, I understand that calling oneself Catholic requires that one accept some aspect(s) of the Catholic world view, whether that be the theology, the moral teachings, etc. I mean, obviously if a person didn't accept anything about the Church than they have no reason to call themselves Catholic. However, the Church professes a ton of different ideas, and I'm unclear on exactly which you think people must accept to rightfully call themselves Catholic. Is just accepting the CotCC enough? (I'm not necessarily challenging you on this, I'm just curious what your position is.)</p>

<p>Just to be clear, though, I don't consider myself Catholic and I hope no one interpreted my previous posts as though I do.</p>

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<p>No problem nameless, that is a perfectly acceptable question. The sad thing is that the answer is "I don't know" honestly... I should ask a priest. For sure transubstantiation and abortion are key topics, you have to have those. Gay marriage also appears to be one of those make-or-break issues. However, there are some gray areas, and that is alright, I just think you should be in communion on the big things. I am not prepared to say that someone isn't Catholic if they choose to use birth control, for instance, but I guess it could be argued.</p>

<p>Sorry, I don't mean to give such a crappy answer, it just is an honest one.</p>

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<p>I think there is a list of dogma one must believe in to be Catholic (transubstantiation, etc.), then there are all the smaller things that are part of Catholicism, but not "required" per se. If you don't believe in those, you can still be considered a Catholic, just perhaps not a very good one. Sorry I can't be very specific either. I should look that up...</p>

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<p>There are five social issues which are non-negotiable if you are going to be Catholic. I don't have a great link yet, remembering this from high school and talking with my roommate about it last night, but they are the following.</p>

<p>gay marriage, cloning, stem-cell research (I am sure infant is meant), abortion, euthanasia. </p>

<p>If you are Catholic, you must agree with the Church on those 5. One interesting one which is not on the list but I kind of think should be (which is only my opinion, nothing doctrinal here) is the death penalty. It just goes to show you that the Catholic Church views abortion as being more evil than the death penalty, though I personally am against both.</p>

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<p>I believe the things Irish mentioned were outlined by Pope Benedict as necessary values to be upheld by Catholic politicians. I think there is a separate list of things that you MUST believe in to be Catholic. Here's an article on what Pope Benedict said:
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/world/europe/13cnd-vatican.html?ex=1331438400&en=ed105adafd87105f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/world/europe/13cnd-vatican.html?ex=1331438400&en=ed105adafd87105f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>This article might be a bit confusing, but it explains the basic idea of what is classified as dogma. It does state that there are certain beliefs necessary for salvation, but I have yet to find a list of what exactly those things are.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Hmm... I know that a LOT of Catholics support stem cell research (some I know personally). In fact I googled it and found this: <a href="http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=5238%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=5238&lt;/a>, which references a poll in which 61% of white (I'm not sure why they limited it only to white) American Catholics supported embryonic stem cell research. Should those people not be calling themselves Catholic? </p>

<p>It seems to me that it's pretty much impossible to make a real black and white distinction between who should and shouldn't be calling themselves Catholic, especially on moral issues rather than theological ones--which is why I don't think it's impossible to support, say, gay marriage, and still be Catholic.</p>

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<p>This article on heresy might also be helpful. I found it interesting at least. I know it sounds a bit archaic and kind of extreme to describe someone as a heretic, but it seems like it fits the discussion. A heretic isn't someone who abandons the faith entirely, but someone guilty of "pertinacious adhesion to a doctrine contradictory to a point of faith clearly defined by the Church."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>P.S. Sorry for hijacking your thread, caliboi. I'm really curious about this now.</p>

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<p>"There are five social issues which are non-negotiable if you are going to be Catholic. I don't have a great link yet, remembering this from high school and talking with my roommate about it last night, but they are the following.</p>

<p>gay marriage, cloning, stem-cell research (I am sure infant is meant), abortion, euthanasia.</p>

<p>If you are Catholic, you must agree with the Church on those 5."</p>

<p>ohhh please people. I've really tried to stay away from this thread but enough is enough. Irish, i respect you and your views and opinions about those five things, but I feel insulted when you say "if you are Catholic, you must agree with the Church on those 5."
come on people this thread has gotten way out of hand. get a clue and have some judgment of your own. i consider myself Catholic, and i don't agree with the Church's position about all of those things. Live, and let live. if the gays want to get married let them get married. who are YOU to judge anyone for anything. yes, the Church teaches this and that and condemns this and that, and whatnot. well guess what, let the Church do that, and ultimately God is the one who's going to judge you for your actions. Follow the Church's teachings, save YOURSELF. it really bothers me when people get all judgmental about all of these kinds of things. you are the reason why notre dame has the reputation it has when in reality it's WAY nothing like that.
for the person who initially asked about gays in notre dame, they are accepted. no, they don't get stoned by the super conservative kids and teachers. no, the priests don't go around campus throwing holy water or trying to perform an exorcism on them. they let them be PERIOD i've never seen a gay/lesbian being harassed or anything here. notre dame is WAY more accepting than what people make it seem. personally, I don't think it's that much different from other universities. yes, you see priests walking around, some even teach classes, and if you're a guy, a priest will be your rector, but that's it. you don't get pressured to do anything. you're not looked down upon for not following a certain Catholic teaching. i think the whole "yeah we're super conservative, blablablabla" is more of a facade to keep the university's reputation. it's FUNNY to see some people preaching and preaching about the Church teaches this and that, then you see them wednesday, thursday, friday, and saturday night out hooking up with random people and doing God knows what. oh but wait, on sundays.... yeah SUNDAYS are different. sundays the ENTIRE dorm lines up to receive communion. GIVE ME A BREAK PEOPLE. i honestly feel that the environment here is quite hypocritical. but then again, who am i to point you out and judge you. i'm just saying, live and let live. believe in whatever you want to believe, and consider yourself Catholics for whatever reasons you think make you Catholic. but don't scare people away with false impressions about how Notre Dame is, and most importantly don't JUDGE OTHERS because that's certainly not your place. and this isn't just a one in a million opinion in Notre Dame. most of the people i've dealt with feel the same way about what i've said.
irish my message isn't directed only towards you and i'm in no way trying to attack you. i'm just letting the CC community know how Notre Dame really is.
peace.</p>

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<p>I like your argument, svirish.</p>

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<p>I second that....</p>

<p>Im trying really hard to stay out of this debate....
but </p>

<p>The Church also says to use 4 different resources in trying to decide if an action is moral or not. Its called Catholic Moral Theological reflection. To reflect on moral or immoral decisions we must utilize 4 different sources. 1. Scripture. 2. Church Tradition 3. Experience 4. Reason. With number 3 and 4, one needs to THINK about the situation. Just because the bible says one things... there are 3 other sources to collaborate with. Therefore I think I disagree with Irish's statement that to be Catholic you must always follow those 5 things. I dont know... maybe its the lil jesuit inside of me speaking.... but Im pretty sure thats how i stand on these issues. So therefore I dont think you can outright say something is immoral without consolidating the circumstances of the situation.</p>

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<p>This board has actually broadened my sense of what the Society of Jesus is.</p>

<p>And I am beginning to lean toward it...</p>

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<p>Dang, this has blown up, I wish I had known and I would have been a bit better at taking some of this on as it came. Still, while I am late, there are some things I should respond to.</p>

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ohhh please people. I've really tried to stay away from this thread but enough is enough. Irish, i respect you and your views and opinions about those five things, but I feel insulted when you say "if you are Catholic, you must agree with the Church on those 5."
come on people this thread has gotten way out of hand. get a clue and have some judgment of your own. i consider myself Catholic, and i don't agree with the Church's position about all of those things. Live, and let live. if the gays want to get married let them get married. who are YOU to judge anyone for anything.

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<p>I am sorry that you feel offended but I stand by my points. I also insist I haven't judged you or anyone else, but rather I am trying to flush out what it means to be Catholic just like everyone else here. There are certain things that one must believe to be Catholic, for instance, Transubstantiation. Agree? It is like you must believe Jesus is the Son of God to be Christian. Can we agree on this much?</p>

<p>The Catholic Church has made its positions VERY clear on many issues. This isn't about what most "Catholics" believe, but rather it is what the Church deems its doctrine to be. As far as that goes, you are either in union with that, or you aren't...like you either believe in Jesus, or you don't. I am not saying one way is right or wrong, I am struggling with some of this stuff myself, honestly. I AM NOT BEING HIGH AND MIGHTY ON THIS, BY THIS STANDARD I MAY NOT BE CONSIDERED CATHOLIC.</p>

<p>I think it is important to flush out these issues so we know where we stand and we are honest about it. I am not saying something is right or wrong, and I am in no way condemning your beliefs nor am I saying any beliefs that I have which may differ from yours are better.</p>

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it really bothers me when people get all judgmental about all of these kinds of things. you are the reason why notre dame has the reputation it has when in reality it's WAY nothing like that.

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<p>So much for that respect for me you mentioned earlier in this post. Glad to know I am the problem with ND's reputation (which I actually like ND's reputation). I believe you are reading too much into what I am saying. I am not judging you, telling you that you are going to hell, or anything like that. That isn't my place and I have no idea what it takes to be saved. What I am arguing for are the positions of the Catholic Church. I must admit I struggle with the gay marriage one a bit, so I may not be Catholic by the standard...and that is okay. Catholic may not equal salvation, who knows.</p>

<p>I want to reinterate my belief that Notre Dame is a very accepting place, believe it or not. It is just this thread has moved from that to theology, but look at my first post in this thread to see my opinion on that. </p>

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The Church also says to use 4 different resources in trying to decide if an action is moral or not. Its called Catholic Moral Theological reflection. To reflect on moral or immoral decisions we must utilize 4 different sources. 1. Scripture. 2. Church Tradition 3. Experience 4. Reason. With number 3 and 4, one needs to THINK about the situation. Just because the bible says one things... there are 3 other sources to collaborate with. Therefore I think I disagree with Irish's statement that to be Catholic you must always follow those 5 things. I dont know... maybe its the lil jesuit inside of me speaking.... but Im pretty sure thats how i stand on these issues. So therefore I dont think you can outright say something is immoral without consolidating the circumstances of the situation.

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<p>It is the Jesuit coming out of you Chillin, lol, I was like that after graduating from Regis. Jesuits have a different view, it either works with you or it doesn't. The 5 I have listed come directly from Rome, I will try to find citations, but that is why I cite those 5. </p>

<p>The Jesuit way of doing this, as Chillin outlined, scares me a bit and strikes me as Protestant. If you have a truly informed conscience it could be fine, but few of us have that. Heck, going to confession I have gotten many different interpretations on the same issue from different priests, so it makes me wonder if they even have informed consciences, you know? </p>

<p>Another argument I want to throw out there is I think I can find scripture and tradition for any of those 5 that I outlined saying why the Church's position is what it is, so really it should pass this test. If you are curious on an issue I will do some research, but as far as the Church is concerned they seem to be pretty clear-cut. </p>

<p>ManUtd, Jesuit teachings and Ignacian spirituality can be wonderful, and perhaps they will work for you. What I will warn you about, and you have to look out for this anywhere, is that they seem to be a bit more liberal with their theology and in times aren't as aligned with Rome as I wish they would be. Just because a priest says something doesn't mean it is the beliefs of the church (look no further than Fr. McBrien on campus). When in doubt, look towards Rome. </p>

<p>That is for finding out the beliefs of the Church. Within each of us we have to decide what is true, what we believe, you know? It may be in-line, it may not be (and again, I am struggling with this too) but who is to say that the Catholic way is the right way? I am not saying it is, that would be judging, but what I am saying is if you are Catholic, these are the things you believe by virtue of being Catholic. If not, you may not be Catholic, and that may fit you just fine. Just something to think about. What is true for you, that is the bigger question than if what you believe aligns with the Church. Find what you believe, see where it fits, and seek out truth.</p>

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<p>I lean slightly toward the left, so that must be why Jesuitical teaching seems appealing.</p>

<p>I have got to figure out how Catholicism defers from the Society of Jesus.</p>

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<p>It doesn't, it is just there are a few Jesuits who lean too far left. The Jesuits are a wonderful order, don't get me wrong! I have a great amount of respect for them. I am just saying don't take everything they say as Gospel, but they are a wonderful order.</p>