<p>Objectification or not, men try so hard with women in North America that it changes how the women think and act. From an early age, they are put on a pedestal and sought after, putting them into a position of entitlement.</p>
<p>I wasn't arguing about Scandinavian countries; I've never been there.</p>
<p>And I'm not a chauvinist. If you hadn't noticed, I've been praising Ukrainian women in this thread.</p>
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By the way women on average are more intelligent than men. Men tend to have more outliers (so the prodigies tend to be male) but women on average are smarter than men.
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<p>I'm interested to see what study/article/etc. told you that. Please cite</p>
<p>I'd also like to know. I read a study that stated that intelligence was pretty much the same between genders, but that the standard deviation was much higher in men (like you said), resulting in more geniuses and more idiots. Women are more clumped around average.</p>
<p>By the way women on average are more intelligent than men</p>
<p>You are just as bad as any male chauvinist. </p>
<p>Here is a story about why women don't get promoted or raises like men do:</p>
<p>Women are "entitled" to feeling 1) socially inadequate given the media's extremely high standard for aesthetic beauty 2) pressured by the media to dumb themselves down for men. The fact is that women are put on a pedestal for aesthetics, but not for anything else. Women are disrespected by men on the intellectual and social levels, and we are merely seen as sexualized objects. Look at the media for example. Women have to look beautiful whereas men don't. Men still dominate the intellectual fields, including the hard sciences, and there is still a wage gap, regardless of what collegehopeful posted. (I will trust the readings in my college courses over one article on the internet.) Your perception of women being on a pedestal is a product of male urges anyway. Males are physiologically more sexualized in nature and this "weakness" leads to the objectification of women and uncontrollable obsession with sex. The reason why women are put on a pedestal is because men can't control their own biological urges and propagate this urge into the media and society. This propagation is used to sell products and essentially an entire system is set up where women--seemingly on a pedestal--are in fact merely used to reinforce and support a male-dominated world--for the financial benefit and visual pleasure of men.</p>
<p>Berkeley, you're just rambling about nothing. Nowhere did I say that males weren't largely to blame for what's wrong with North American society (I actually implied the opposite).</p>
<p>What I'm saying is that the girls in America have a pretty sweet deal going and obviously aren't going to do anything about it (why would they?) and that if I was going to go anywhere for women, it'd be somewhere like Ukraine where that wasn't the case. I was just pointing out the things socially wrong (in my opinion, of course) with America. Nowhere did I try to discriminate against women.</p>
<p>The wage gap statistic is bunk. Everyone who's thought deeply about the issue knows it, and I have since it initially disturbed me. How could there possibly be such a gap? In fact, I e-mailed a journalist after she wrote a rather neutral article on the issue, asking her whether she had salary data breakdowns for specific age groups, jobs, average hours worked per week, etc. She was nice and actually responded, said that she didn't and it was a valid point. The 83 cents on the dollar is a broad average.</p>
<p>Women in general have different priorities. That affects pay. They also flock to different jobs than men. How many female IBankers do you see? I go to a business school and I can tell you even here where IB is the rage, very very few women want that lifestyle. I couldn't count the number of guys I know who are chomping at the bit for that sacred IBanking spot. I could count the number of girls on one hand. Even if that hand had 1 finger. On the flip side, I believe over 90% of geneticists are female. So it's obvious that just ignoring where women end up career-wise (which the wage-gap does) will stilt the statistic.</p>
<p>This has nothing to do with chauvinism. So don't bring that stuff in here. The facts are the facts. The day women as a whole care more about money than men is the day their average pay will be higher. As was cited earlier in this thread, money was the top priority for 3/4ths of men and 1/4ths of women. That is a HUGE discrepancy. Men are still expected to be the breadwinners in today's society.</p>
<p>collegehopeful - why so insistent on that fact? I readily accept that women are more intelligent than men on average. But why're you calling Russell "as bad as any male chauvinist" when BerkeleySenior stated the same thing 3 posts above him? Double standard? I think yes.</p>
<p>And that story proves nothing except that you don't get promotions unless you ask for them, and you don't get a higher salary unless you negotiate... I don't see that as gender discrimination. Nowhere in that article did it say that the man by default got that 10% increase. There are men who don't bargain either, they get the shaft just like the women who don't.</p>
<p>BerkeleySenior your post only applies to a small majority of wise and smart women. You should be proud of that but unlike you most women love that they are put on a pedestal and use sexual manipulation to manipulate , use and abuse men and get what they want from them. This is why I am saying Eruope is better for men and women. Men are not judged by height and money and women are not judged for their weight. Relationships are healthier. Btw college courses are mostly taught by radical feminists. All colleges cater towards women. Have you ever heard of a man's center? Look at the Duke case. One college formed a male support groups and there was public outcry. I can't even believe what type of bs from women is allowed on college campuses. Men are heavily abused by the government. Breast cancer gets 4 times as much money than prostate cancer despite the fact that both cancers claim an almost equal number of lives. How can you justify how men are abused in family and divorce court. There is no such thing as father's rights. Men are not allowed to even show emotion. An American man is the counterpart of an Afghani or Iraqi woman.</p>
<p>Collectiv I think that collegehopeful was quoting berkeley (without quotations) and saying that she is just as bad as any male chauvinist.</p>
<p>I was calling Berkelysenior as bad as any male chauvnist not Russell7. Women are not smarter than men on average. Its just that the school system caters to women. In general inteligence is equal.</p>
<p>Men</a> Smarter than Women, Scientist Claims | LiveScience </p>
<p>Now lets argue the opposite. Colletivsynergy is another example of bias against men. Men aren't allowed to say they are smarter. That is sexist. Its empowering if women do it. This why men and women have come to the point where they actually believe women are smarter.</p>
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What I'm saying is that the girls in America have a pretty sweet deal going and obviously aren't going to do anything about it (why would they?) and that if I was going to go anywhere for women, it'd be somewhere like Ukraine where that wasn't the case. I was just pointing out the things socially wrong (in my opinion, of course) with America. Nowhere did I try to discriminate against women.
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<p>And the purpose of my post was to point out that the institution established by men merely perpetuates the image--purely illusionary--that women are on the pedestal. To be on a pedestal you have to have to be respected and at the pinnacle of the power hierarchy. Since women are not in power--and the Caucasian male still fares better than others--females are not really on a pedestal. </p>
<p>What you are complaining about is the "traditional" tenet that men should actively seek out women and that men should be the one to ask women out. This has no relation to women being on a pedestal since sexual relations do not necessarily imply a greater respect for the other party. While women do not have to actively pursue men in America, it doesn't mean that she's worshiped nor respected.</p>
<p>I said that women's p*****s were being worshiped. I hoped that you could guess what I meant by that. Really, you're just clutching at straws here.</p>
<p>And I meant pedestal as in a position of high importance in their lives. It doesn't necessarily have to mean respect.</p>
<p>Ah okay, my bad. My role model (I'm a guy) has always been my mom, not my dad. I suppose a bias based on environment. I have no problem with saying I'm smarter than most girls I meet, but based on my conception of the "average male" and "average female" intelligence I'd say the woman is generally more quick-witted. Of course, this is far from actual proven fact. And it's probably influenced by the fact that a large majority of my friends are girls.</p>
<p>Berkeley - I don't know if you realize but men are actually under just as much pressure to look good. Most just hide it, or act flippant because it's not manly to admit you artfully sculpt your hair with mousse. Beckham fully disclosed he not only tweezes, but he waxes as well. And he's an athlete! Men get just as dolled up before public appearances (Edwards' haircut anyone?). It's just their make-up is more subtle by necessity.</p>
<p>Men also dominate the hard sciences and intellectual fields because of the same reason of the wage gap. This is not a surprise! Just go to any college and walk into a science course. Nobody is locking women out of these classes. In my advanced calculus class about three quarters were guys. I'll bet that ratio increases further up the chain. It has nothing to do with "disrespect." It has everything to do with fewer women choosing to major in physics and chemistry than men and even less choose an incredibly stressful and difficult career as a research scientist.</p>
<p>In my upper level math courses, less than 20% are women.</p>
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And I meant pedestal as in a position of high importance in their lives. It doesn't necessarily have to mean respect.
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<p>So Ukrainian males don't think sex/women are "highly important" in their lives? Aren't all men obsessed with sex?</p>
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I have no problem with saying I'm smarter than most girls I meet
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Where do you go to school? Reminds me of another article I read, that men generally overestimate their IQ by 5 points. </p>
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Men also dominate the hard sciences and intellectual fields because of the same reason of the wage gap.
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<p>There's also a social bias against women in these fields. I grew up with the perception that women are less capable than men in the hard sciences. My own father told me that women are less capable in engineering and physics. By the way, there are some articles that talk about how women have a harder time making management; it's not just about the hours/field.</p>
<p>I've counted at least 4 alleged articles. Please start citing them...</p>
<p>I have no problem conceding women have more emotional intelligence, but arguing the other side also is wrong.</p>
<p>Whatever. Men have to work. Women have the choice of working or marrying rich. American men are like Iraqi women in terms of rights. What about the female bias in nursing, teaching and tasks such as babysitting. Also women heavily outearn men in the porn industry. jkjkjk.</p>
<p>Berkeleysenior, it's very different over there for a number of reasons... most importantly, in America, the ratio of fit and attractive single girls to single men is so skewed that women do not need to put any effort into it. A hot looking, fit single woman has every guy in a 25 mile radius sniffing at her door because she knows she is an endangered species. Almost every woman is fit and attractive in Ukraine, so it is a whole different world. They have to fight over the good men, who are the endangered species over there.</p>
<p>This is one article that purports that men overestimate their own IQs. (This one however states that men and women are intellectually on average the same, which contradicts with another article I read in class that women on average are smarter. I can pull out my old reader to find the authors for that article...that peer review was not on the internet.</p>
<p>Men</a>, Women and IQ | Newsweek To Your Health | Newsweek.com</p>
<p>I don't know why this happens, but even the smart women pretend to be dumb in our society. WHY??</p>