Good Aid or Good School?

College Search & Selection
1

I’ve come to an impasse. I have a good enough ACT at 34 to secure good financial aid from average schools. My GPA prevents me from getting better schools’ automatic scholarships at a 3.5. I had wanted a small or mid-sized school with an intensely academic nature, outside of urban sprawls, but those type of schools don’t have to give much for students to go. They are attractive and selective enough in nature to not need added incentives.
A select few schools have offered automatic competitive aid to me:

University of Alabama (Full-Tuition)
Ole Miss (Full-Tuition / Full Ride)
LSU (Full Ride)
University of Miami - OH (Half-Tuition to Full-Tuition)
Baylor University (~Full Tuition)

Further, I could gamble on the competitive scholarships offered at slightly better schools, but I don’t know how to determine whether or not a school would provide significant aid. The issue is that I am in the running, if an underdog in them, for schools I’m interested in, schools like St. Olaf, Oberlin, Kenyon, and a few other LACs.
The question, then, is whether or not I should choose to go to a good school or get a nearly-free education. To students in college or paying off their loans now, would you recommend the aid or the better school? I don’t have a particular major or career in mind yet, but do intend on trying to further my education as far as I can once I figure it out, if that helps.

2

Do you have APs / SATIIs? It might not be a fit for you, as you say you don’t have a subject that you are genuinely interested in, but Oxford or Cambridge would have all those pieces. No financial aid is the downside, but an amazing experience that would take you anywhere.

3

I know that education is about more than dollars; it is not about less.

What I mean is that you can quantify your expenses, but that isn’t worth much unless you can quantify the benefits in similar units. I.E. you have to figure out what dollar value to put on the quality of experience and prestige of the name. Nobody else can.

There is a time value to money, and that’s doubly true with student debt. Borrowing 50000 means paying back something like 70000 - in today’s dollars. Do that as an undergrad and grad school may forever remain out of reach.

But doesn’t the “better” school open more doors? Maybe, but maybe not. One of the Alabamas’ websites highlighted an alumna who double majored in engineering and history and now “Georgia Tech, MIT, and Carnegie Mellon have all offered her funding to attend [graduate school].”[1] Graduating debt free, or nearly so, opens doors too: further education, home ownership, travel, crewing an America’s Cup boat - whatever turns your crank.

[1]http://www.uah.edu/news/people/unique-double-major-yields-twice-the-recognition-for-uah-student

4

@collegemom3717, I got a 5 on A.P. U.S. and European History. I’m passionate about history, but hesitant to make a career of it. It’s a great field, an interesting and interdisciplinary one, but it just doesn’t lead to many careers. I will have 4 more AP classes next year for Senior year, not that they’ll help a whole lot; The grades won’t be in for colleges to see. My 2 scores do not hit Oxford’s standard.

@50N40W, Thanks. The hard part about this is that a dedicated and outstanding student at most schools can get into good grad schools, but the grad student experience is markedly different from the undergraduate. It’s just hard to determine whether or not being an average student at an extraordinary school and paying hundreds of dollars for 10-15 years is really worth it. When you consider that against being an extraordinary student at an ordinary school, you can still reach grad school and great employment, but are your chances diminished? Is it easier than it seems to be happy at a school you don’t really want, just being in school and learning versus being in that ONE school you want?
It’s hard to tell.

Thanks again,

If anyone here took a full-tuition/full-ride over their top schools and wants to justify/lament about their decision, that would be great too.

5

I had full tuition (military based) scholarship to one of the schools on your list. Allowed a debt free graduation. Never regretted it. Never felt limited because of it. As DD gets deeper into the college search the more humbled I am by just how good of a deal that was.

Candidly, my experience in engineering is that once you’ve been out 5 years or so, nobody cares about where you went other than for small talk or alumni functions. Others may have different experiences. Some of the intangible things linger in between the ears, however, and I’ll always recommend a school with some real devotion to the liberal arts over an indifferent one.

If you have a finite wad of cash and intend to go on to graduate school, you can’t blow it all on a BS/BA and realistically expect an MS/MA or PhD to appear.

The secret to getting everything you want is to guard jealously your wants. All of the schools you list are unattainable dreams for 99% of the earth’s population. Going to any of them is a privilege of historic dimensions. All of them have extraordinary students, some of them also have some of more modest abilities, but all of them will have people smarter and more capable than you or me, count on it.

That doesn’t answer your question, so try this: Life is the process of keeping body and soul together while neglecting neither. The college selection experience is this in miniature - balancing the intangibles against the dollar.

I recommend low/no debt, but good luck with whatever way you choose!

6

I don’t want to over-push Oxford- it’s not for everybody, for lots of reasons, but just want to be sure that you are working with accurate info.

Oxford wants 3 scores of 5 on relevant APs- but you don’t have to have taken them all before you apply. Most applicants get ‘conditional’ offers, based on their school’s ‘predictions’ of the exams they are sitting in May/June. For history, your 2 5s are very relevant, and certainly enough to apply with. You would have to take the History Aptitude Test in the autumn, and your score on that will be a huge part of whether you get invited to interview (which can be done by Skype, though it’s a great experience if you can go).

As to what you do with a History undergraduate degree, I can tell you that I know Oxford historians who finished this year who are going to work for Deloitte (strategy consulting), KPMG (management consulting), Goldmans (wealth management team), a niche investment banking company, Harvard Law (on a scholarship), the UK version of the State Deparrment, and a masters/phd program in - yes- history :slight_smile:

7

Thanks for the info, @collgemom3717, again. XD
That’s great news, it is similar to what I’ve listed, isn’t it.
I hadn’t really considered that school until you mentioned it. I dunno what I feel about the UK, or the associated pricetag, but it seems to be a good fit otherwise. Then, back to the question at hand, you seem to be pressing the “better fitting school” over the price, exactly the opposite of the only other respondent

@50N40W, Heh, I didn’t realize how elitist my first post sounded. 0.o
I understand that these are all good options if they’re the type of school you’re looking for. In fact, most of them are great, few state school outside offer their quality of education and their environment at their selectivity. I acknowledge this, and understand the upsides to your path. Thanks for your input, it’s reassuring to see you don’t feel held-back at all for following the path I am considering. Your insight is more helpful than you imagine, and thanks for your service.

It’s very interesting to compare your answers. I was kind of expecting adults able to look back on their college experience to swing wildly to one way or another; I guess two replies aren’t much to go on, but they do suggest otherwise. I wonder if anyone else will pick this up?

8

:slight_smile:

Actually, I am generally with the ‘get the finances right / don’t spend money you don’t have’ camp here, but it isn’t clear what your bottom line is on finances- and I do think that there are people for whom school is more than school, and that is worth giving some consideration.

This may sound half-full-ish, but I would say that it’s not so much that your chances are ‘diminished’ at an ‘ordinary’ school, but more that a tippy top name can enhance. But for all colleges- even Oxford & Harvard & U Chicago- what matters much, much more (and there is a lot of research on this) is what you actually do in college. Do you shine? do you search out interesting, challenging opportunities? ‘Better’ schools might make it easier for you to do those things - but they won’t do them for you.

If it wasn’t, none of us would have gotten over our first crush :slight_smile:

There is that song … ‘when I’m not near the one I love, I love the one I’m near’…
Or:
‘you can’t always get what you want…But if you try / sometimes / well you just might find you get what you need’

In all of life, it is useful to be ale to recognize when longing for ONE thing is getting in the way of moving forward.

In the meantime, give credit to the marketing team at UChicago, who succeeded in wooing you in 2D- and realize that you are not as immune to advertising as you might think/hope/wish!

9

Chicago has a great prospectus, doesn’t it?
It describes a school of people like myself, just too urban for my liking. The idea of a college of true academics in the classic sense, people with passion for learning in all its facets and dedication to being the best their field has to offer is greatly alluring to me.
No one’s immune to advertising.

The bottom line on finances is probably in the upper $40k/yr range, making Oxford a real stretch since it doesn’t appear to give much aid to international students. I could make it work if I fall in love with the school though. Realistically, I could pay for most of the schools in the U.S., the problem is it would be in loans. It’s not that I cannot afford a good school, it’s that it’s difficult for me to quantify the college experience. It’s hard to say now whether I want to be asking the question “What if I’d gone to that school?” or “What if I didn’t have to pay ~$300+/mo. for my student loans?”

I’d say we’ve about beat this into the ground unless someone else joins the conversation, though.
Thanks again for your reply. I was hoping more people would contribute, find an average or something.
=/

10

You as a student are limited to $5500 as a freshman, $6500 as a Soph, $7500 as a Junior and Senior. Anything else would be on your parents. Apply to some LACs as well. Denison IME is more generous than Kenyon so you might want to consider them. BTW, it’s Miami U in OH. U of Miami is in FL.

11

You mention that your GPA is not high enough for automatic scholarships, but you never actually provide your GPA. That would be helpful in order to give you reasonable recommendations.

12

Sorry misread your sentence

13

Of the automatic scholarship schools on your list, I would visit the Alabama and Baylor campuses and see what you think. The questions you have are best answered by sitting in on a few classes, talking with the students, and going to the honors college (esp. at Alabama) which offers are much more enhanced experience. Full tuition rides are very significant, it means you get complete your undergrad for only living expenses (say, $12K/yr) which you could make by working summers and a bit in the school year.

I think the answer you want is fairly nuanced. College is what you make of it and you are limited by where you are admitted and what you can afford, plus to opportunities at the school you attend. Alumni networks are very important for jobs after you graduate, so keep that in mind too. Those networks tend to be regional, so link go to school near where you want to live if you do not plan on going to graduate school. The fastest growth areas are in the red states, and the largest red state is Texas.

If you are planning on majoring in a subject that has poor employment prospects (e.g. English), don’t take any debt unless you have a job waiting for you. If you are in a subject with good prospects (e.g. CS, Engineering) some debt may be OK if it makes it possible to finish more quickly. Some subjects require you to have a graduate degree for any reasonably compensated job in the field. Just be aware that debt limits your options for the future.

14

I like that… “Debt limits your options for the future.”

If you’ll allow some expansion on the idea:
“We may perceive an elite school may open some doors, but we know that debt closes doors in proportion to the amount owed.”

15

[QUOTE=""]
is whether or not I should choose to go to a good school or get a nearly-free education

[/QUOTE]

Your Q is wrong. Those schools offering you large merit ARE GOOD SCHOOLS. What do you think that that they are??

As mentioned above, you CANNOT pay for any school with loans. YOU can only borrow small amounts.


[QUOTE=""]
One of the Alabamas' websites highlighted an alumna who double majored in engineering and history and now "Georgia Tech, MIT, and Carnegie Mellon have all offered her funding to attend [graduate school]." <<<

[/QUOTE]

Those aren’t unusual stories. I know many students from Bama who’ve been awarded fully-funded grad programs from “elite” univs…Stanford, Ivy League, MIT, Rice, Emory, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Wash U, etc.

You wanted to know about students who passed on higher ranking schools for merit elsewhere…read this…
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-alabama/1549857-what-schools-did-your-child-pass-on-in-order-to-attend-alabama.html#latest

16

Am I overlooking a mention of major and career goal?

How much will your parents pay each year?

17

@mom2collegekids I was waiting to see how long before your sage advice showed up on this thread. I was thinking the exact same things, but I couldn’t speak with first hand knowledge like you can.

18

^ lol…thank you for your kind words…


[QUOTE=""]
Forced assumption is my household's total income is $160,000 or so before tax. The only ones where cost may prohibit me are those that I am likely prohibited by academics as well; Their $60-$65k pricetags intimidate us a bit. I may be a bit paranoid, but while we're fine financially currently, I wonder if another one of my dad's increasingly frequent hospital visits could cost him his job. If that happens, this whole list may need to be rethought, but at current, it''s safe. <<<

[/QUOTE]

I now remember you. Your dad has had frequent, serious, and long-term hospitalizations which could cost him his job.

Looking at this from a practical standpoint, it doesn’t seem likely that during the next 5 years your dad will be “incident free” unfortunately. If I were your parent, I would not want the $40k+ per year bill over my head with a spouse whose health was in jeopardy.

Do you realize that if you had to leave a school due to a change in family finances, you would no longer be able to get those big merit awards?

19

Everyone - I feel like crying in recognition and support - and D hasn’t even put in her first formal application yet.

Vote with your feet - at least think long and hard about it - or this private school tuition inflation/insufficient aid nonsense will not stop!

In the movie “Disclosure” Michael Douglas is told “You’re playing HER game. Play YOUR game.”

Here’s a story I posted on another thread. Every word is true and unembellished. I share it not to brag but to urge someone in your position to take the long view.

I went to my flagship (not land grant, who thinks they are the flagship) state school, worked my butt off and finished with one of the top 2-3 GPAs in my department.

I got a prestigious summer internship earning what would probably be 4K/month today and had offers from Dow, Clorox, and a major consulting firm.

Plus my department begged me to stay for grad school, which I ultimately did because I wanted to tailor myself for a specific industry that wasn’t big corporate chemical (and, full disclosure, I was dating seriously a person who was employed in the area).

My first boss after master’s graduation was an alum of my program, 8 years ahead of me. He walked into my department one day at the beginning of my last semester and said, “Tell me the name of your best and brightest new grad. I want him/her to come interview with me.” He hired me 4 months before graduation, and waited until I was finished with my thesis. This is key, because I had friends whose new employers wanted them to start work as soon as they were done with their classwork and research, and write the thesis at night on their own time. I was promoted from entry-level within a year.

I moved across the country to New England a couple of years later and that’s the only place I’ve experienced school snobbism. In hindsight, I believe that was more because my alma mater was outside the Northeast than because it was public (Well, for the most part … There were a couple of execs who were from private schools who had their noses in the air … Of course they also preferred members of their own ethnic group, SE class, and gender, plus I didn’t own a boat, so the school wouldn’t have mattered in any case).

When I had 5 years experience in my field I was making more money than my husband with 15 years in his. I share this not to brag, but to urge you to take the long view.

My advice - go to a state school, or whatever tier of school you think is “not good” even though they’re willing to invest in your future with a full tuition scholarship, and kick a$$ there. And invest in strong relationships with your faculty at all levels.

For gosh sake, don’t reinforce the private school tuition insanity if you can’t pay it. Vote with your feet and let someone else go 200K into debt … Crikey, that number doesn’t even seem real. Go to the hottest grad school you can get into, or buy a house instead. Good luck to you.

20

Keep hunting, you might find other schools that will give you full tuition, it will be a bit of a shot in the dark if you can spread some extra applications around and you have your automatic admissions schools lined up.