<p>I would first like to request that nobody post to attempt to dissuade me from this combination, as i'm aware of the various problems that comes with the combination and the "uselessness" of a philosophy degree, but my mind is set.</p>
<p>That being said, I'm a high school senior who is looking for colleges with both strong physics and philosophy departments, both being intense interests of mine, and would appreciate it greatly if some suggestions could be presented.</p>
<p>Cost constraints, state of residency, academic stats?</p>
<p>If you are a New Jersey resident, Rutgers is an obvious choice.</p>
<p>I actually think it’s a great combo. Modern science is based upon philosophy, and philosophy emphasizes logical thinking and analysis - which is very useful in the sciences. Also, I supervised a philosophy major for the last 2 years; he just graduated and he’s currently working as a business manager at a successful start-up. (The music and English majors also had jobs at graduation; whether or not you’re employed is more dependent on you).</p>
<p>Anyway, I would say that most top colleges will have decent departments in both of those majors.</p>
<p>These are schools that have both top-ranked physics and philosophy doctoral programs. While doctoral programs are different from undergraduate programs, sometimes the quality of the grad program can indicate the overall strength of the department.</p>
<p>Princeton
UC-Berkeley
MIT
Harvard
Columbia
Penn State
University of Chicago
Caltech
Carnegie Mellon
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Duke
UC-San Diego</p>
<p>You can look at the lists here:</p>
<p>Physics: [NRC</a> Rankings Overview: Physics - Faculty - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Physics”>NRC Rankings Overview: Physics)
Philosophy: [NRC</a> Rankings Overview: Philosophy - Faculty - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Philosophy”>NRC Rankings Overview: Philosophy)</p>
<p>I would take these with a grain of salt, though. Why is explained here:</p>
<p>[The</a> Philosophical Gourmet Report 2011 :: Undergraduate Study](<a href=“http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/undergrad.asp]The”>http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/undergrad.asp)</p>
<p>This site notes that some schools that have a good reputation for better undergraduate education, like Princeton, Yale, Rice, and Brown, may offer an excellent undergrad education in philosophy. But larger graduate-focused universities (they list Harvard and Michigan; I would add Columbia to that list) may not offer such a great undergrad experience even if their departments are phenomenal simply because faculty tend to focus their energies on graduate education. However, it does note that the quality of the PhD program may affect you in an unexpected way - at these large places, a lot of your teachers may be graduate students. You’ll get better grad student teachers at a top-ranked PhD program than at a mid-ranked one.</p>
<p>Of course, none of the schools that may be great for you but don’t have doctoral programs (which includes LACs but also smaller regional universities and even larger ones that don’t have PhD programs in one or both fields) will be included on this list. And undergrad programs aren’t usually ranked by, or even reputable for, individual departments.</p>
<p>The above website suggests these non-doctoral schools for philosophy:</p>
<p>Amherst
Dartmouth
Reed
Wellesley
Western Washington
UVermont
Claremont McKenna
Pomona</p>
<p>as well as advice in selecting an undergrad philosophy program.</p>
<p>I would add the University of Michigan to Juillet’s list of top doctoral programs.</p>
<p>Stats (GPA, class rank, scores)? Cost constraints (are your parents able and willing to cover the Expected Family Contribution at an expensive private or out-of-state public school)? Other preferences (size, location, etc.)?</p>
<p>Check out Reed College if you’re at all interested in liberal arts colleges.</p>
<p>Pay attention to strength in physics, absolutely, but also pay some attention to the philosophy departments that are strong in philosophy of science generally, and the philosophy of physics more specifically. Princeton, absolutely. I would place Michigan a strong second on that list, if not first; probably Columbia third. (What the Philosophical Gourmet says in general terms about undergrad philosophy at Michigan is pure b.s. Look at the undergrad philosophy courses at Michigan; they’re all small courses taught by tenured or tenure-track faculty. It’s a huge department in numbers of faculty, but a tiny department in number of students, and it’s one of the top philosophy faculties in the world). </p>
<p>Here are the top 5 U.S. programs in philosophy of science, according to the Philosophical Gourmet: 1. Pitt; 2. (tie) Carnegie Mellon, UC Irvine, Michigan, Wisconsin </p>
<p>Here are the top 5 U.S. programs in the philosophy of physics, according to the Philosophical Gourmet: 1. Michigan; 2. (tie) UC Irvine, Pitt; 4. (tie) Columbia, NYU, Princeton, Arizona, UCSD, Maryland, South Carolina</p>
<p>Top physics programs, per US News (among schools mentioned in philosophy rankings): Princeton #5, Michigan #11, Columbia #11, UCSD #14, Maryland #14, Wisconsin #17, Carnegie Mellon #30, UC Irvine #30, Arizona #36, NYU #40, Pitt #52, South Carolina #113</p>
<p>Even if you double-major, then unless you’re at an Open Curriculum college, the majority of your courses over 4 years are likely to be outside the philosophy and physics departments. Therefore, the quality of your undergraduate academic experience won’t be determined solely by the strength of the physics or philosophy departments. </p>
<p>I think Brian Leiter’s comments about “Undergraduate Study” on the PG site need to be interpreted in that light. He really doesn’t have much to say about Michigan there. He claims that the tenured faculty at Michigan (and other schools with major departments) includes professors who did not do their undergraduate work at institutions with top-ranked PhD programs. He also suggests that much of the teaching at larger institutions (like Michigan) will be done by graduate students. This might not be the case at all in intermediate-to-advanced courses in low-demand majors. Nevertheless, you are likely to get some courses taught (or heavily assisted) by grad students in your first two years. This is likely at most research universities (even at many selective private schools). If you want to avoid this entirely, consider LACs.</p>
<p>“Even if you double-major, then unless you’re at an Open Curriculum college, the majority of your courses over 4 years are likely to be outside the philosophy and physics departments.”</p>
<p>I am not sure where you went to college tk, but at Michigan, students take a huge chunk of their classes within their major. For example, Physics majors are expected to take 9 intermediate-advanced level Physics classes. That’s not including intro-level prerequisites. Altogether, Physics majors will take a minimum of 11 Physics classes. But those serious about their major will likely take more. Keeping in mind that Michigan requires approximately 40 classes for graduation, a minimum of 11 courses in your major is significant. But in the case of a double major, the number of courses taken within your majors doubles. Philosophy majors at Michigan are required to take 11 intermediate-advanced classes, not including intro-level prerequisites. Altogether, Philosophy majors at Michigan will take at least 13 classes within their major. If you add them up, a Physics and Philosophy double major will take at least 24 classes (out of 40) within her/his majors. That represents well over 50% of all courses taken at the university. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/philosophy/undergraduate/degreeprograms/concentration/concentrationdistributionrequirements_ci[/url]”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/philosophy/undergraduate/degreeprograms/concentration/concentrationdistributionrequirements_ci</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/physics/academics/undergraduateprogram/majorminorprograms[/url]”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/physics/academics/undergraduateprogram/majorminorprograms</a></p>
<p>As such, I would say that the strength of the department of the field you choose to major in matters immensely. </p>
<p>Also, students at Michigan majoring in non-popular subjects (such as Chemistry, Classics, Mathematics, Philosophy, Physics etc…) have unusually intimate exposure to leading faculty. Those departments easily have 30-60 tenured faculty and fewer than 100 undergrads majoring in those fields per graduating class. Once you get past the intro-level prerequisite courses, being taught by a professor that is considered a world authority in her/his field in a classroom with 15 or fewer students is the norm in those majors. </p>
<p>“Therefore, the quality of your undergraduate academic experience won’t be determined solely by the strength of the physics or philosophy departments.”</p>
<p>I don’t think it matters in the case of students attending academic powerhouses such as Cal, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Harvard, Michigan, Princeton, Stanford etc… since every single department at those universities is excellent, and the faculty in each of those departments will be stellar.</p>
<p>“He also suggests that much of the teaching at larger institutions (like Michigan) will be done by graduate students. This might not be the case at all in intermediate-to-advanced courses in low-demand majors. Nevertheless, you are likely to get some courses taught (or heavily assisted) by grad students in your first two years.”</p>
<p>Only graduate students almost never teach at Michigan, unless you consider the small discussion sessions of large intro-level courses that are themselves taught by faculty. Only 3% of all classes (and 1% of intermediate and advanced level classes) at Michigan are taught by graduate students, and the vast majority of those classes are intro-level writing, mathematics or foreign language classes. Even in the most popular majors, like Economics, Political Science and Psychology, you will have a member of the faculty (most likely Lecturers) teach undergrads intro-level classes. Intermediate and advanced level courses will almost always be taught by leading faculty. Don’t get me wrong tk, graduate students are definitely very present at Michigan. They are very active participants in the undergraduate educational experience, and in my opinion, not to the detriment of undergraduate students. But it is almost always restricted to group discussion leaders, or to intro-level courses in very common prerequisite courses such as Calculus 1 and 2, or Writing.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/gsi-sa/teach.html[/url]”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/gsi-sa/teach.html</a></p>
<p>Thank you for all the responses.</p>
<p>In regards to my stats, I don’t know my exact GPA, but I know that it is greater than 3.5, and though my SAT scores were unsatisfactory for a variety of reasons(anxiety, lack of sleep, nosebleed, etc.) I hope that this will soon be rectified by the ACTs. I unfortunately have no AP to speak of( I have attended an alternative high-school since the ninth grade due to some mental health issues I had a few years back, and their course pool is painfully small.), but I am doing some post secondary stuff this year, so hopefully that will rectify that problem.</p>
<p>I live in Cleveland Ohio, and I do think cost will be somewhat of an issue, though I’m hoping I can play the mental health card for some scholarships. Cheaper is better, but I don’t want to completely dismiss more exspensive options.</p>
<p>OP, have you considered your flagship Ohio State?</p>
<p>That’s quite an interesting combo, update us on how it works out for you</p>
<p>OSU is indeed an excellent option, both from an academic and from a CoA point of view. Ohio is also home to some excellent LACs, including Kenyon and Oberlin.</p>
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<p>Yes…but most of your first two years are spent in those classes. And the professor lectures for maybe an hour or two a week, but you spend most of your time in section or labs with the grad student. The lectures are large (over 100 students, and sometimes a lot more than that). So you really don’t have any direct contact with the professors. Just want to clarify… I went to Michigan, and that was definitely my experience. Now I had some good (and some horrible) grad students in those sections and labs. But my experience was that I spent a LOT more time being taught by grad students for the first two years than your post implies.</p>
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<p>Well, not necessarily. Depends on the department. First, most freshmen at Michigan take a language and a math class; they’re all taught in small sections (concededly mostly by grad students, but I believe that’s also often the case at HYP and other elite private universities, though not at LACs). </p>
<p>Beyond that, it’s possible to major in philosophy without ever taking a large class. They do offer some large-ish general “introduction to philosophy” lecture + discussion classes; I think these rarely get as big as 100 students. But the big intro philosophy lecture classes aren’t really prerequisites for anything, and they’re really more geared toward giving non-majors a taste of philosophy than toward preparing philosophy majors for upper-level study. So mostly the department doesn’t care too much how, as a potential major, you approach it; they just want you to get your feet wet, however it best works for you. You could start, for example, by taking a topical introductory seminar taught by a professor (not a TA). These are small classes (maybe up to 20 students?). Or you could take an introductory logic class, of varying degrees of rigor. The more challenging ones focusing on formal symbolic logic–which you’d want if you’re going to be a philosophy major–are generally quite small. Or you could start with a history of philosophy class. Some of these are large-ish (for philosophy, but not for the university as a whole), others much smaller. The point is, you have options, there’s no rigid sequence of courses, you never need to take a large lecture class in philosophy if you don’t want to (I didn’t, and I went on to a top grad school in the field). By your second year you could be taking smallish 300-level courses and by your third and fourth year even smaller 400-level (graduate-level) courses. All taught by professors, if that’s your preference. And it’s quite easy to get to know the professors in the department, even as a freshman. They’re just happy to have some people genuinely interested in the field, and not just taking it to check off a box on their distribution requirements.</p>
<p>Not sure about physics, but even fewer people major in physics (22 bachelors degrees granted in the most recent year I could find data for, compared to 48 in philosophy, 346 in econ, 350 in political science, and 436 in psychology). So certainly by the time you get to upper-level physics courses, the classes will be small. I think a lot of engineering majors take some of the intro physics classes, however, so that probably bulks them up quite a bit. Whether there’s a way to bypass that, I couldn’t say, but it’s worth investigating.</p>
<p>Point is, even as a first-semester freshman you could be taking 3 or 4 small classes and maybe one big one, and jump-start your progress toward two majors.</p>
<p>Pre-meds tend to take a lot of large classes because there are so many of them. Same is true to some extent in very popular departments like poli sci, econ, and psychology. Not so in philosophy, probably not so at the advanced level in physics.</p>
<p>University of Michigan has an honors introductory physics sequence (starting with 160/161 instead of 140/141). 140/141 has 4 lectures and 39 labs, while 160/161 has 1 lecture and 2 labs, according to the on-line schedule. The schedule does not say the capacity in each section, but it is quite likely that the honors lecture (with likely prospective physics majors) is much smaller than any of the non-honors lectures (probably mainly engineering majors).</p>
<p>There is also a physics for biology majors sequence (starting with 135/136); the schedule lists 3 lectures and 25 labs.</p>
<p>"…And the professor lectures for maybe an hour or two a week, but you spend most of your time in section or labs with the graduate student"</p>
<p>Perhaps you are referring to Freshman Writing (English 125), the four semesters Foreign Language requirement and Mathematics 115 and 116. Those are 7 classes than many LSA students must take their first two years in college and they are almost all taught by graduate students. But beyond those classes, I am not sure I agree with your statement. In most subjects, lectures meet 3-4 hours per week (usually divided into two lectures of 90-12 minutes each) and discussion sections meet once per week for 60-90 minutes. So the opposite of what you said is true. And by their very nature, discussion sections are discussion-based, which means that the graduate student acts more as a facilitator than teacher. Most of the teaching takes place in lectures. There are exceptions naturally. For example, Chemistry is known for having lengthy labs, and those are supervised by graduate students, but then again, students are expected to do their own work in labs with minimal supervision from faculty/graduate students. </p>
<p>“So you really don’t have any direct contact with the professors”</p>
<p>You mean in addition to the 3-4 hours of lecture time? What about office hours? I spent a lot more time one-on-one with faculty than I did with graduate students. I suppose it depends on the student, but I never heard of a student taking the initiative to meet a professor during office hours and not getting through. </p>
<p>Listen intparent, I am not saying that graduate students do not exist. I clearly stated that they are very present and visible. But They are supposed to be. Any major research university with large graduate student populations (that includes public and private institutions alike) is going to have significant graduate student instructors at the intro-levels.</p>
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<p>Thanks, ucbalumnus, this is very helpful info. And you’re right, on the Physics Department web pages they say the 160/161-261/262 “honors” sequence is the “preferred sequence for students interested in any science concentration, especially physics,” and you “do not to be [an] LSA Honors Program member” to take this sequence. The Physics 140/141-240/241 sequence is “recommended for engineers,” and the Physics 135/136-235/236 sequence is recommended for students on a “pre-health track or studying the life sciences.” </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/physics/academics/undergraduateprogram/introductoryphysicscourses[/url]”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/physics/academics/undergraduateprogram/introductoryphysicscourses</a></p>
<p>This is actually quite clever as a way of protecting physics majors from intro physics mega-lectures: essentially, you tell all the engineers to go stand over in that corner, and all the pre-meds, nursing, and bio students to go stand together over in the other corner, and you’re left with a smallish number of potential physics majors (and potentially some chem majors) to teach separately in a smaller-numbers setting. With only 2 lab sections, I imagine there aren’t more than 50 students in the lecture, if that.</p>
<p>Some schools show enrollment caps (or even actual enrollment numbers) in their online course schedules. I have not found this information for the University of Michigan, but I’ve examined enrollment sizes for classes at a few other research universities. YMMV for specific departments and schools, and depending on how much advanced placement credit you bring in (or “honors” status) . But here for example are enrollment sizes for various intro/intermediate courses at UC Berkeley:</p>
<p>Berkeley, Spring 2013<a href="%5Burl=http://schedule.berkeley.edu/srchsprg.html%5DSearch%20Spring%20-%20Online%20Schedule%20Of%20Classes%5B/url%5D">/u</a>
BIOLOGY 1A P 001 LEC, 647 students (3 hrs/week)
…BIOLOGY 1A S 101 DISCUSSION, 28 students (1 hr/week)
CHEMISTRY 1A P 001 LEC, 418 students (3 hrs/week)
…CHEMISTRY 1A S 102 DISCUSSION, 25 students (1 hr/week)
POLITICAL SCIENCE 1 P 001 LEC, 234 students (3 hrs/week)
…POLITICAL SCIENCE 1 S 101 DIS, 18 students (2 hrs/week)
PSYCHOLOGY 1 P 001 LEC, 464 students (2 hrs/week)
…PSYCHOLOGY 1 S 101 DISCUSSION, 25 students (1 hr/week)
LINGUISTICS 100 P 001 LEC, 101 students (3 hrs/week)
…LINGUISTICS 100 S 101 DISCUSSION, 17 students (1 hr/week)
LINGUISTICS 115 P 001 LEC Phonology & Morphology, 93 students (3 hrs/week)
…LINGUISTICS 115 S 101 DISCUSSION, 18 students (1 hr/week)
PHILOSOPHY 12A P 001 LEC, 137 students (3 hrs/week), no discussion sections
PHILOSOPHY 25B P 001 LEC Modern Phil, 178 students (3 hrs/week), no discussion sections
PHYSICS 137A P 001 LEC Quantum Mech, 95 students (3 hrs/week)
…PHYSICS 137A S 101 DISCUSSION, 56 students (1 hr/week)</p>
<p>It’s the discussion/lab sections of these courses that would be taught by grad students.</p>
<p>Maybe the torture of those semesters of foreign language locked in a small room with a grad student are overwelming my memory… but the TA I had for intro Chem who spoke almost no English sticks with me, too. And the lecture hall with several hundred in it for the intro history class – the professor was a speck up in the front, could barely see him. Let’s see… intro calc, taught by a grad student. A zillion hours spent in geology labs for first two year, all time with grad students… the required freshman English course was also taught by a grad student (not native English speaker and not a good teacher). Intro Econ (a couple of semesters if I recall correctly), another huge lecture hall with the prof far away from most of the students.</p>
<p>There is a reason my kids are attending LACs with small class sizes. I wouldn’t wish the first two years of research university experience on them, mostly because of the reliance on grad students. Although professors more interested in research than teaching were part of the issue, too. Beside the point for the OP’s question, but it bugs me when people act like grad students who don’t really want to teach/professors who would rather be researching or teaching grad students doesn’t affect the college experience negatively.</p>
<p>Physics and Philosophy FTW 
I’m doing a double major in those subjects :)</p>
<p>Rutgers comes to mind. It’s philosophy department is internationally ranked in the top 10 (if ranks mean anything to you ;)), and it’s physics program is pretty decent. But I hear that it’s very difficult to get in OOS.</p>