I know this is not really an MT specific question but in regards to GPA & high school transcript … My question is we are in a state/county that doesn’t inflate GPA…like even honors classes in school don’t get anything other then regular 4.0 for an A etc…only AP and certain accelerated courses get more( like Spanish III etc) .
In the neighboring state I wondered why everyone has these crazy high GPAS. So a parent told me they get more then a 4.0 for an A in honors classes. Like Honors English 11, etc . So even though my D takes the same classes as those kids , her GPA is not as high. Like literally every kid is in NHS there because of everyone has over 4.0 GPA,
How do colleges look at this? I mean it doesn’t seem like it would be a level playing field to me. Do they look at each states students individually as regarding their grading policies?
According to what I’ve been told by college counselors and guidance counselors, colleges know how the grading goes high school by high school. Many colleges create their own algorithm based on your child’s scores. That way the playing field has been leveled - all of the kids are being compared by the same scoring system. Our school has a “weighted” GPA, so our GPAs are based on a 4.5 scale, not a 4.0 scale. And that is reported to the college. Our high school doesn’t rank - so where you rank in the class can’t be reported like it is at other schools. The colleges know that and don’t look for class rank at our high school.
We found that colleges used the unweighted GPA. The transcripts in our school system reflect both GPAs.
I think almost all of the schools we looked at used an unweighted GPA in their decision making. We wish we had known this earlier as I probably would have had D take 1 or 2 fewer AP classes just to ease the stress level senior year (and yes I know that there are students that were able to handle tons of AP classes just fine – but just being honest- for us, it was stressful). It would have been better for her GPA to have an A in an advanced class rather than a B in an AP class.
If your student applies to Florida State, you will see firsthand how colleges break down transcripts in a systematic manner as you have to fill out an SSAR - a self-reported academic record. Courses are entered in a very specific and systematized manner with grades entered for each semester. You have to use specific slots in the form for each course. As you complete the form, it is readily apparent how this normalizes all transcripts into a level playing field.
The “very selective” and “extremely selective” colleges usually recompute their own version of GPA using only “core” academic classes: math, science, English, social studies, and foreign language. They may also apply a weighting factor based on their perception of the academic rigor of specific high school programs.
Most schools D’s looked at only considered core academic classes for their gpa–no art/ theatre/ health/ gym or electives. They calculated a number using unweighted grades, but would also note whether these classes were mostly honors or AP.
Yes- many/most colleges use unweighted grades, but I agree that if you are applying to academically selective colleges you want to show rigor in your class choices. You might have a fantastic GPA in all regular classes, but colleges see that your school offered 20+ AP classes - they are going to wonder why you didn’t take them, and what that says about you as a student. Now, it’s not like you have to take every AP out there- my D only took 1 AP in both science and math - but she was able to show that her classes got progressively more challenging (which I would say is particularly important- to go from AP English in 11th grade to regular English in 12th would be a red flag to many selective schools), and she took multiple APs in other subjects.
As with all other things- know your list. There are TONS of great programs where this won’t matter at all- but there are others where it will.
Hi, college counselor here. I have always found it rather interesting on this forum that people quote their GPAs and think that is enough information for readers to assess their chances at colleges and so forth. GPAs need a context.
Not every high school uses weighted GPA (whereby more difficult level classes like AP or Honors get more weight in the GPA calculations). For example, my girls’ high school did not have weighted grades when they attended. It so happens that my older D, after much research of high schools across the country and in our state of VT, wrote a policy for our school to develop a weighted grade system. She spent two years on this, with presentations to faculty, administrators and eventually the school board. The school board adopted her policy for the school, which was enacted after she graduated. But I digress.
Most colleges will calculate an Unweighted GPA for their applicants. This puts everyone on a level playing field as it would not be fair to compare the GPA of someone in a school that had Weighted grades with someone in a school that just used Unweighted grades. Moreover, the grading system varies from high school to high school (such as 4.0 scale or a different scale, what a grade range is equal to in terms of letter grades or numerical grades, etc.). Even when I evaluate my advisees’ academic qualifications, I calculate an unweighted GPA for ALL of them. When you look at profiles of colleges and their accepted student “stats,” they are stating Unweighted GPAs.
That said, be assured that GPA alone is not the only thing when looking at the academic record! Colleges WILL examine the RIGOR of the courses the student has taken. Thus, the “weighted” aspect of GPA is not lost in this regard! More selective colleges want to see students challenging themselves with demanding courses. As well, and this is important to note, colleges examine the student’s academic record in the CONTEXT of their own high school. At the time my girls went to our HS, there were only two AP courses, Calculus and Physics (that has since changed). The most rigorous courses at our HS at the time were called Honors (and they were demanding!). Colleges are not going to say, oh, my kids didn’t take 8 AP courses and some kid from another HS did, because my kids’ high school did not offer those courses. Instead, they examine how much the student challenged themselves in the context of what was offered at their own high school. Guidance counselors (on their report to the colleges), have to check off the level of rigor the student has taken in the context of what was offered. For example, my kids’ GC would have checked off “Most Demanding,” for my kids because they took the hardest classes offered at our HS, and then some (acceleration, long distance learning, and more). Colleges know that the same opportunities are not available at every high school. Again, it is not as if Weighted grades do not count, but every college is going to calculate an unweighted GPA to keep it the same criteria for every applicant, and then examine the rigor of the curriculum chosen within the context of the applicant’s own high school. Not only do they look at GPA, by the way, they also look at your transcript and see the actual grades you got…not just your average, and academic core classes are the main deal and what your grades were in those.
Be aware that along with the transcript sent to colleges for an applicant, your high school also submits what is called the School Profile. This document outlines many things about the high school such as curriculum offered, population, grading system, GPA system, class rank system (or distribution of GPA charts), percentage of graduates that attend college, SAT/ACT ranges/means for the senior class, AP test results for the class, extracurriculars offered, list of colleges graduates are attending, and so on. When I evaluate a student, I always ask for the School Profile, in addition to a transcript, because the transcript is interpreted within the context of the School Profile.
I hope this helps. And I hope that when people quote their GPAs on the forum, that people realize that we don’t have enough context as to whether they are giving an unweighted or weighted GPA, the rigor of the courses taken within the context of their own HS, and so on. It is not enough to go by and colleges don’t either.
In addition to what soozievt has stated, colleges have access to a huge database that includes high schools from all over North America, and some Asian and European schools. Information about grading differences is available to them, as well as how previous students from any particular high school has done once they are in college.
I wonder then, how an arts high school figures in to the GPA calculation and so forth. I know they may only go by core classes like math , English etc but my D has half of her day devoted to her arts classes which is not really typical of a regular high school… I would think some colleges that she is applying to for theatre as her major would look at those arts classes in a different context because of the major and the arts high school being her high school… I guess that is where the school profile comes into play. Her school has 300 kids so they don’t actually offer as many classes of AP that a typical school does.
Plus someone mentioned going from an AP Lang class in junior year to an Honors English 12 class was negative… My D is doing this but simply because AP lit was the other English AP & she wasn’t that interested in it. She is doing great in AP Lang and is taking AP US history senior yr so it’s not cause she’s trying to be a slacker lol it’s just interest reasons , plus again, not loading up on AP classes senior year since she’ll be auditioning etc.
@theatrework - actually, Arts schools are not necessarily all that different. Comprehensive high school students don’t necessarily spend any more time in core academics than in arts schools - they typically get study periods, electives, gym classes, etc. where arts schools kids get art blocks. The number of academic core classes works out about the same. My d attended a PA high school where students spend 3-4 hours a day in their arts blocks and students from her school routinely get accepted to HYPS and other top colleges. She had no trouble with academic acceptances and received academic merit scholarships to every school that she applied to (most of the scholarships were quite large), despite “only” taking AP classes in History, English (Lang and Lit), Government (one semester), and Macro Economics (one semester) and “only” taking 3 non-AP science classes and Math only through Algebra II and a practical stats class. Despite taking only a limited number of AP classes, she did well enough on the AP exams that she did take to place out of 23 hours at Western Michigan (and would have received similar credit from most of her other admits).
I don’t know if you’ve read anything about the changes afoot in college admissions. There is a large coalition (+90 colleges including most big name ones) who are vowing to take a more holistic view of students and value authentic engagement and dismiss resume padding, including saying they will only look at a few meaningful AP credits.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/20/opinion/rethinking-college-admissions.html
Students at PA schools (at least public ones) still have to have to meet graduation requirements for the state (Generally 4 credits of English/Math, at least 3 of Science/Social Studies, 2 of foreign lang etc…)
The school my D attended was a magnet from a variety of districts- but was contained within her home HS (which was a plan on our part- we moved there so D could participate in the arts program) but she still had the opportunity to take the full compliment of classes offered by the nationally ranked HS as well. Scheduling was the toughest part- there were a couple of classes D would have loved to take (AP Psych, photography etc) that didn’t make the cut b/c there was not room in the schedule
I am yet to find a university that cares about a weighted GPA. My high school doesn’t weight GPA’s at all so an A in a regular class has the same value as an A in an AP/Honors class, gpa wise. Many colleges look at the rigor of classes you take and put that into consideration but they’ll almost always ask for your unweighted GPA because it’s more consistent through out schools in the country.
As far as admissions committee looking at a Arts High school differently, most of the time it’s separate. When you send in your test scores and transcripts it gets reviewed by the same people who are looking at any other major at the university. It’s normally two different decisions that go on for academic and artistic so when you are just trying to get admitted to the school first, it’s basically the same as any other math or science major. Of course, like everything else in this process it can vary among schools.
So much discussion already & great points made by all! Something else to think about is that once you are admitted, SOME schools (several that D was admitted to & the one she attends) - I know not all schools are like this - base academic scholarships solely on unweighted GPA & ACT or SAT (also rank, but her school doesn’t rank). She took demanding classes so the she could graduate with an “Advanced with Honors” diploma, but in hindsight, would have been better off skipping some of the harder classes she struggled in and making A’s in classes that were a little easier. The grade scale was also an issue - her school switched from an 8 point to a 10 point scale her senior year & she had several 91/B’s from 9th-11th grades and unweighted they were counted as 3 points instead of 4. She missed out on a lot of scholarship $$$ with the unweighted GPA, even though her ACT/SAT scores were quite good.
@theaterwork My S also spent 1/2 days in an arts program his Junior and Senior years. He also decided to take college 1/2 days his senior year rather than taking AP courses at his HS - SO - he spent mornings at Kent State and afternoons in his arts program. Grades coming from college courses are NOT weighted. It did not cost him scholarship money at BW but I assume it would have at more academically selective schools.
Trying to figure out how to word this without sounding obnoxious. I apologize in advance if I fail.
@SoozieVT in post 7 above pretty much nailed the key info you need but there is another wrinkle and I don’t know if this applies to you @theatrework or not but it did apply to our situation.
Some of the most academically rigorous schools in the country do not weight grades. Do not offer AP classes and may or may not even offer honors classes. But they screen heavily who they admit including some sort of a testing threshold. It’s basically hard core academic admissions 4 years before college even starts. Then they merrily roll along with all classes being of exceptional rigor and eventually spit out a graduating class where 60% of the students are national merit finalists or something like that which pretty much validates the concept academically anyway. If you are drawn to that sort of thing, chances are your kid will end up with a fantastic education before ever setting foot on a college campus. So far, so good.
Now the HS college counselors of those kinds of schools will regularly field frantic questions from concerned parents and students with respect to how do colleges know that from this school, it is so hard to earn an “A” or have a GPA that is anywhere near a 4.0. And the wise and knowing counselors will say, “don’t worry, the schools know our school and how we work.” Yes, that’s likely true if you are talking about any of the Ivies, Stanford, Northwestern, Claremonts, Johns Hopkins, Tufts and many other schools like that. But what if the school you really mean is a lesser academic school that houses the killer MT program? Guess what… the colleges DON’T know your high school because they don’t normally see any applicants from it and that 3.5, 3.6, maybe 3.7 GPA from a killer academic school will carry a lot less weight in terms of admissions and scholarships than the 3.8, 3.9, 4.0 from a school where maybe there was far less rigor and on average a far less academically invested student body.
Every school has their academic stars who would do well anywhere so please get my point. Some schools just have more of them (because they screen for it) and set the rigor of their curriculum accordingly. So you sit in classes with more academic stars and when it comes time for things like providing data like class rank, students are ranked against more of these academic stars. Or in many cases the schools refuse to rank just as they do not weight grades.
Here is the rub. Colleges indeed look at school profiles to assess what you did as a student in your HS vs. what everyone else did. It’s a good way to get a general read of what kind of student you were within the environment of the school you were at. But if you go to school with a bunch of geniuses, that’s an interesting comparison. From my experience, colleges will (understandably) spend a heck of a lot less time really getting underneath the rigor of one school vs. the other when it comes to a high school they don’t have much experience with. They will rely on things like unweighted GPA, number of APs and things like that and judge from there. I’m speaking in general terms but from my experience, that’s pretty much what happens.
So in conclusion, my feeling is that if you want to be handed diamonds and pearls from lesser academic colleges with the killer MT program, you are more likely to unearth those treasures by making choices that help secure better grades from whatever level of rigor than you are going balls to the wall on academics. Personally, I’d never play that game for the sake of gaming the system and didn’t. I’d rather seek out the appropriate education for the student at hand whatever that means and not spend high school trying to game college. Spend high school grabbing the appropriate educational experiences instead of thinking about how it provides a path to college.
Full disclosure, my D and artskids S went to the same HS. So it is certainly possible to choose different paths within the same system
@halflokum - you described our high school and the school’s college counselor to a T!!! “They know who we are” and “Our regular classes are like advanced everywhere else” are oft-repeated. My D had to tell the counselor what a BFA was, but she knows how to help kids get in the Ivies! While our school does offer AP classes and weights grades, it is academically rigorous, so our smart kid didn’t look very smart on paper!
Do you find that most colleges apply the 10 point grading system? Our school lags behind the norm, still utilizing a 7 point scale.