GPA & rank punishment for taking HS classes early

Parents Forum
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<p>The fuss about rank is that it is one of a small handful of factors that highly selective colleges consider. Most adcoms note that it is either “Important” or “Very Important”.</p>

<p>In an absurd world where students who have scored 34 on their ACT or 2250+ on the SAT retake the tests to gain an edge, it is predictable that rank would be fought over viciously. Control of class rank is handled at the local school level, so aggressive parents have more reason to believe that they can influence it than a national organization like the College Board.</p>

<p>Many schools try to avoid these problems by not ranking students, or not reporting rankings. I have heard adcoms state that fewer than half of high schools typically report rank now.</p>

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<p>Upset? Well, if you are, that’s not something you have control over. I’ve yet to see a perfectly fair way of ranking students. You are usually stuck with the system to which you subscribed which was when you enrolled your kid in the school. Rank is something that is fought over fiercely at many schools. So, yes, it’s understandable that you are upset if your child falls in an unfair area of your school’s policy. You can do as you have done and see if the district can provide any alleviations, but if they cannot, you are stuck with the result. And upset is justifiable, but really not anything useful another than garnering some sympathy and commiseration.</p>

<p>For those schools that have profiles that show them to be truly top fight schools, the top colleges that use class rank take the grading scales and student population into consideration. Otherwise, you are with the masses in having that part of the student profile assessed. That’ s just the way it works.</p>

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<p>Perhaps people have finally realized that, particularly at larger schools, “valedictorian” is more a statistical anomaly than an achievement.</p>

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<p>My guess is that school officials got tired of irate parents screaming about their Billy being two spots behind Sally in the ranking although he CLEARLY IS A BETTER STUDENT. There will also be a few students every year who fall just below the top 5% cutoff, 10% cutoff, 20% cutoff, 25% cutoff, etc. who complain about the injustice and try to get the system changed retroactively.</p>

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<p>I know the feeling. I graduated fourth in my HS class and wasn’t able to check the box for “top 5%.” #SmallSchoolProblems</p>

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<p>The original post confuses me. What is Z’s gpa, was the freshman class in question a solid or a misc requirement? Is it an elite hs or just huge, where kids easily collect A’s and plug them into the formula and, yeah, the more weighted the class, the more points you get?</p>

<p>Z took a higher credit class, as a freshman, and got an A- or B? Or took one of the “required, low-level non-honors” classes and others delayed that til later, thus packing their points?</p>

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<p>There are a lot of ways to lose a bit in class rank, by the way, which really are unfair. Taking a band or music class that is not AP or honors bolstered, taking anything that isn’t can do this, and many times a student is better to do so, when interests and enjoyment are in the picture. There are those who do sit and plan out getting the val/sal position from day one and deliberately work towards that goal, and if you are competing with those doing that, it can be a bit disheartening.</p>

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<p>With few exceptions, rank is a one-second look-see, just a confirmation in the context of the hs. More time is spent on the transcript and the rest of the package. Ime, there are cases where the higher ranked kid gets a preference, but in holistic, all the pieces have to be there. There are some pools of applicants from tough hs, where every one of them is on the most rigorous path. But not all kids get through the holistic “ring of fire” in the same way. </p>

<p>If OP is looking for a most competitive college, he/she needs to take a look at the rest of what Z will present. Not get tripped up by rank. It’s not all about stats.</p>

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<p>My son (a rising senior) took most of the honors / AP classes that his peers took / are taking in their junior an senior years as a freshman and sophomore. He is now challenging himself by taking several difficult courses over and above what the HS offers. When we talked about the fact that it might hurt his rank / GPA by doing so since not all of the courses he is taking are weighted, he responded that he would rather learn something new that he is interested in than play the GPA game. Gotta respect the kid. Sometimes the students are less concerned about all of the gamesmanship than their parents.</p>

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<p>I’m the OP. Thanks to all who suggested the note in the file. Definitely an option to pursue later.</p>

<p>@rmldad wrote: The fuss about rank is that it is one of a small handful of factors that highly selective colleges consider. Most adcoms note that it is either “Important” or “Very Important”.</p>

<p>Exactly.</p>

<p>@lookingforward, the high school is large. I’m not sure what definitively qualifies a school as “elite” but it has many Ivy admissions every year.</p>

<p>We chose not to play the game of val/sal early on as we’ve never felt that was important. At our school, that involves taking multiple extra classes (e.g. 20+ AP/college courses).</p>

<p>Again, the SPECIFIC classes I’m talking about are REQUIRED. Or at least, all but one is now required. That one should never have been taken, or should be removed from the calculations since most (99%? All but one?) students weren’t required to take it. </p>

<p>The graduation requirements should be equal for all students in the class. I’m guessing it was an oversight to not remember the students caught in the middle of the two different requirements.</p>

<p>The requirements were completed freshman year. Not taken in middle school. Z received A’s in all of the classes.</p>

<p>@ordinarylives You wrote in post #22 about liking class rank, and you look at student admissions folders, so must be “in the biz.” :wink: </p>

<p>If you have 5 students who are (pretend along with me) completely equal in every way with excellent test scores, grades, rigor, ECs, essays, personality, etc., but have rank of 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 <em>from the same school where rank is on the transcript</em> are people seriously thinking the 10 & 20 don’t have an edge over 40 & 50?</p>

<p>Kind of reminds me of schools who say they’ll “ignore” your lower test scores but require you to send them in. Can they really help themselves not to notice? I don’t think so.</p>

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<p>Everyday- I could name you 50 unfair things about college admissions- your justifiable issue being one of them. But the point is, that in the grand scheme of things, it’s probably not worth the energy or time to try and fix it- especially if the school is being dense about it.</p>

<p>There are teachers who grade with a large component going to “Effort” (or what the teacher perceives as effort) so the kids who are plugging along and doing B work end up with the same grade as the kids who really master the material (but aren’t sucking up and pretending). Is that fair? There are schools whose profiles list AP classes (usually physics and chemistry) that haven’t been offered in 8 years since the AP science teacher retired. So kids applying to engineering schools end up looking like slugs- who applies to CMU or RPI engineering without taking AP chem and physics in a HS which offers them? Or kids who take yearbook as their “arts elective” which counts as much towards the GPA as AP Music or Studio Art.</p>

<p>Let it go. It’s unfair, the GC should include a line in the GC’s letter about it, but at the end of the day, I can’t imagine a scenario where it will really make a difference.</p>

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The thing is the kids never are exactly equal. Does an Intel project weigh more than a paying job in computer science? Does four years of two orchestras weigh more than doing one orchestra and drama? Does a 790/760 weigh more than 760/790? Does the admissions officer think an A in Latin is worth more than A in Spanish? Does being male applying to an LAC count for something extra? I can tell you that I’ve regularly seen kids get in over ones who were ranked higher. I really think if you are in the top 2% (for Ivies at our school) or the top 5% for other very selective colleges your chances are pretty good of getting into at least one of your reaches - at our school. If the difference is between #2 and #20 it may make a difference, but if it’s the difference between #21 and #29 I doubt it does. My youngest was one kid away from being in the top 5% - maybe it made a difference - who knows! (Since as far as I’m concerned the B’s he got from Latin were gifts from the teacher - I’m not sure he deserved to have as good a rank as he did!)</p>

<p>In many schools they really do ignore the lower scores. Someone goes through the files and just records the top scores on the folder, and the reader never sees the rest of the scores.</p>

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<p>My sons went to an independent school where kids got into some of the ivies and top 25 schools even being in the second quintile. Also, my son got into some surprising stretches and got lots of merit aid with a 3.0 (average at his school) and a near perfect SAT, all but one AP test being 5s. So it depends upon the school. </p>

<p>Mathmom brings up a lot of factors that come into play other than just class rank. But, yes, if your kid is at an "average’ high school, being in the top 3-5 students, not percent, but students is what’s needed many times for getting into the most selective schools.</p>

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Are you seriously thinking taking a couple of classes of non-AP/ honor classes change your child’s ranking by 20 , 30 places ?</p>

<p>My D who will be a freshman in college this coming year took 1 choir and 3 soccer classes instead of a total of 2 required classes.</p>

<p>The classes were all easy 100s but still lowered her GPA.
It changed from 5.57 to 5.55 I believe and it lowered her ranking by maybe 2 places . She ended up in 4th place instead of being Salutatorian , may be.</p>

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<p>I had wondered why my kids’ school stopped ranking (sort of, they’ll report quintile). Now I know. </p>

<p>My son sometimes complains that what he’s best at (physics/math) are classes that have grade inflation, while what he’s not as good at (foreign languages) are those that have had grade deflation at his school. He thinks it’s unfair, and perhaps it is. It’s also unfair that two teachers don’t grade identically and that I’m shorter than my best friend. What I always tell him is that what he has learned is his and will be with him regardless of class rank or GPA. </p>

<p>I think I will tell him to read this thread; I think he will realize how silly it is.</p>

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<p>@everyday… wrote: “If you have 5 students who are (pretend along with me) completely equal in every way with excellent test scores, grades, rigor, ECs, essays, personality, etc., but have rank of 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50”</p>

<p>If they have equal grades and rigor there would not be a 40 ranking difference between the two.</p>

<p>Some kids/parents work very hard to get to val/sal - as early as thinking about this in middle school and plan how to take more AP/Honors and place out of or take early the courses in which you “merely” can get a 4.0 for an A.</p>

<p>But that goal doesn’t always translate into the best college result. At our high school, the Val/Sal both got turned down by one of the top Ivy’s while some students with much lower grades got in. The difference was what was in the rest of their application.</p>

<p>Your mileage may vary.</p>

<p>But for the OP, having a 4.0 unweighted and a solid schedule is not really different than a 4.0 unweighted who edged you out for Val/Sal because they took one less non-honors type class.</p>

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<p>“If you have 5 students who are (pretend along with me) completely equal in every way with excellent test scores, grades, rigor, ECs, essays, personality, etc., but have rank of 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 <em>from the same school where rank is on the transcript</em> are people seriously thinking the 10 & 20 don’t have an edge over 40 & 50?”</p>

<p>=================================
same school?!</p>

<p>It’s just not going to happen. If you have 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 have the same grades that means everyone from 10 through 50 have the same grades. If this is the case, then something odd is going on at that school. (personally, I’d start looking at the order of the last names)</p>

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<p>Chances of kids being equal in all respects, to adcoms, are rare. Again, some are focusing on stats and what’s big news in the hs. The trip up is the rest of the app package. </p>

<p>It’s true that most tippy top colleges seem to admit mostly highly ranked kids. (I believe the usual stat is how many freshmen were in the top 10%.) But I think you’re looking through the wrong lens. It is not that rank guarantees or promotes. It is that these colleges have an applicant pool that is huge and fiercely competitive. Once you get past first round, the vast majority are 4.0, with a similar pattern of activities. You don’t filter based on rank, which, as noted, is an uneven playing field. You filter based on the rest of the story- most important, how the kid stretched, academically and including in and outside the neat little hs box, and the perspective he shows. And other things. </p>

<p>“Important” or “very important” does not mean “decisive.” You have to wrap your head around holistic.</p>

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<p>Only if you also assume that they took exactly the same classes, no more and no less. In my son’s HS you are required to take three classes of PE (which could be waived if you were in a HS sport), health, a practical class (cooking, programing, accounting, etc.) and an “Intro to HS” class (graded P/F). Honors/AP/IB classes gave you +1 to your GPA, so theoretically you could get a 5.0, but with the required classes that was not usually possible. One year a student graduated with a 4.95, but she was an athlete (which waived the PE requirements), took health online (making it P/F) and her one non-Honors practical class. That took some serious planning.</p>

<p>My son waived out of one PE class and took health online. But he also started a second foreign language in HS (Latin) which was non-Honors for the first year and he was in a choir for four years, his senior year he was in two. He graduated with an UW 4.0 and a weighted GPA of 4.70. He was just within the top 5% when he applied to colleges and just outside when he graduated. There were at least 25 spots between him and the Val, but, like GraniteStateMom’s son, he wouldn’t have had it any other way. I was a little concerned that he wouldn’t be in the top 5% when he was applying, but I’m sure that the GC marked the box for “most difficult class schedule”.</p>

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<p>"… he responded that he would rather learn something new that he is interested in than play the GPA game. Gotta respect the kid" - Amen to that, Granite! </p>

<p>A coworker’s has a very bright son that encountered lower ranking due to doing calc class at State Flagship down the road (unweighted) rather than hs AP. The dad felt it resulted in Stanford denial, but it’s hard to really know - Stanford is a tough admit for all.</p>