<p>What is the truth behind princeton's grade deflation policy? Only 35% of students in a course can get As???</p>
<p>This sorta sucks for the pre-meds, and pre-lawers?!!!</p>
<p>yea and whats the curve like in the ORFE program...</p>
<p>Neurologist, calm down; it's truly not as bad as you think.</p>
<p>Generally, in any course, the top 2/3 of the class (usually anyone who has a 83 average or above) will, after final exams, engage in something called the A Grade Placement Test, or AGPT. This, to put it shortly, usually involves a no-holds-barred battle royale held in a large, wired-off area of the Frist Campus Center's basement. The aforementioned students will be placed in this large, wired 'arena' of sorts at around 9:00 PM at night. The professor then leaves the basement, locks the door, and turns the lights out. He then comes back to the basement at around 7:00 AM the next day, and opens the barbed-wire door to the enclosure. Anyone who is able to walk out of the enclosure of their own free power, not being supported or helped by anyone, will receive an A in the class. The proportion of people who leave the arena is usually anywhere from 30% on bad years to nearly 75% with classes who know each other well. The remaining students are then scooped up and placed in the infirmary; their grades will range anywhere from a B+ to a C+, depending on how long it takes for them to be checked out.</p>
<p><6 Hours: B+
6 - 18 Hours: B
18 Hours - 3 Days B - </p>
<br>
<p>3 Days: C+</p>
<br>
<p>The infirmary staff are extremely well-trained, and in the few years since Princeton's grade deflation policy has began, no fatalities as a result of this practice have been reported. Indeed, a trend is beginning where Princeton upperclassmen show off their AGPT scars as badges of honor. Princeton's unique method of grading does raise some eyebrows, but most who fully appreciate the system say that it puts a healthy emphasis on hard work, dedication, and determination.</p>
<p>Qwertulen--thanks and all, but your attempt to calm me down just seriously scared the Fcu# out of me. </p>
<p>No...one less applicate to Princeton here!</p>
<p>^^^^ Is he/she [neurologist] serious?</p>
<p>Unfortunately grade deflation is true. In most courses, only 35% of a class can get A range grades. These are for lower level courses (100 and 200 , some 300 levels). In the 300 and above levels, I do believe up to 55% of students in a class can get A's.</p>
<p>It is in all truth a terrible system that is implemented terribly by a terrible woman (Nancy Malkiel). However, it is not the end to a career by any means. We do extremely well in med and law school placement.</p>
<p>However, with classes that curve around a B- at Princeton while most all of our peer institutions curve around the B+, it does make things trickier.</p>
<p>I think ivyboy makes it sound much worse than it is. If you're looking for a ridiculous GPA (3.75+), then yes, grade "deflation" will make this much harder to get those grades. It's not a strict 35% limit--many professors are lenient with their grades or ignore the deflation policy altogether. That said, it's still very very possible to get B-range grades, which are perfectly respectable in itself. </p>
<p>Honestly, I don't see the big deal. As ivyboy points out, Princeton students uniformly do well post-graduation, in professional school, grad school, or a career. It's clear, then, that this "deflation" isn't impacting our success, so there's absolutely no reason that this huge fuss should be put up. Calling it a "terrible system" is an exaggeration and exhibits a flair for dramatics. There's absolutely nothing that says we should be guaranteed A's after high school--having to work for A's, in fact, might actually make students work harder.</p>
<p>(this does, of course, run into the same problem of students caring about grades, which seems sort of like circular logic or something...)</p>
<p>maybe i was being a bit dramatic, but when you have an A all semester in a class, then your grade changes to a B+ suddenly at the end of the semester (and i know a B+ is a good grade, but that is a large drop) because the professor will be threatened with tenure by nancy malkiel personally, that presents a problem with the system</p>
<p>look
i have a few things to say that might calm everyone down
a) most of the science departments were meeting this requirement even before it was implemented, so future pre-meds, calm down, because nothing has changed, except that the playing field at school has been somewhat leveled with the social sciences and humanities...
b) The dean of harvard medical school came to speak to us and politely informed us about how Harvard and everyone else are very much aware of the policy and take it into consideration...
c) I believe the requirement is implemented department wide, in most cases. For mathematics, that means that most of the tougher marks get given out in the intro level classes where people are legitimately earning those marks anyway, leaving room for most of the kids taking real analysis or whatever to get the A's (if the professor chooses) free from the requirement (although practically speaking those A's might not and probably won't be given!)
Yes, at the end of the day the system has some significant flaws. That being said, I have personally never gotten a lower grade due to the policy.</p>
<p>I think raging bull hits on a few good points.</p>
<p>
[quote]
a) most of the science departments were meeting this requirement even before it was implemented, so future pre-meds, calm down, because nothing has changed, except that the playing field at school has been somewhat leveled with the social sciences and humanities...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is something most people forget. 90+% of pre-meds major in chemistry, mol bio, or something similar. If you belong to this group, you were ALWAYS facing 35% A's anyway, and hey, Princeton's never suffered in the past. Why will you do so now?</p>
<p>And as quirkily noted, for 300 level classes and above, half or more kids get A's in a class. This doesn't strike me as too bad.</p>
<p>Really, it's not a perfect policy, but it's not worth losing sleep over.</p>
<p>Most people admitted have lost plenty of sleep over the past two years to gain entry to school, only to find out two thirds of them are promised Bs or lower. This hurts non-wealthy students from less high-performing schools- their preparation is naturally weaker, and there is no chance to catch up to their prep school brethren. While admissions touts the idea 'you all deserve to be here' to new freshmen, the message morphs into 'but you all don't deserve the chance to leave with honors'. Where is the belief that EVERYONE is capable of succeeding, when a grade quota exists?</p>
<p>
[quote]
This hurts non-wealthy students from less high-performing schools- their preparation is naturally weaker, and there is no chance to catch up to their prep school brethren.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This would be true with or without grade deflation - you're never going to get perfect equality of preparation for incoming freshmen. Are you suggesting we try to give everyone A's to hide this?</p>
<p>
[quote]
While admissions touts the idea 'you all deserve to be here' to new freshmen, the message morphs into 'but you all don't deserve the chance to leave with honors'.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, honors (cum laude, magna cum laude, summa cum laude) are all given by the departments themselves, so grade deflation changes little. </p>
<p>For a lot of departments (science, engineering, etc.), the GPAs will not change much even after grade deflation. But even if you're, say, an English major, the department will take the overall shift in undergraduate GPAs into account, and so the threshold needed to graduate with honors ought to change along with whatever grade deflation does.</p>
<p>And other honor societies - like phi beta kappa - which take the top x% of the undergraduate class become MORE fair, since being an English major no longer gives you a GPA advantage.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Where is the belief that EVERYONE is capable of succeeding, when a grade quota exists?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, now you delve into the philosophical, and we can debate this forever. For the record, I think you make a fine point, but not so fine that there aren't counterarguments. One such argument is that at a high-caliber school like Princeton, the only standard for "success" that can really push students (and after all, being challenged is a big part of a good education) is a relative one: how good are you when compared to students like you?</p>
<p>Another point is what Dean Malkiel might tell you: there's no cap, just a general guideline. If a professor passionately feels that more than 35% of students have been "successful", he's free to give, say, 40% A's or whatever.</p>
<p>What do I think, personally? A part of me grudgingly accepts the first counterargument. I think it's fair to say that if incoming classes have become stronger than they were in decades past, it's important for the students' sake that they be challenged commensurately. If not, you risk under-challenging a growing contingent of kids. I also get some sort of limited comfort from Malkiel's point. </p>
<p>Ultimately, though, I don't see too many classrooms where every single student is brilliant enough to get an A (where "brilliant enough" is judged by Princeton standards) to really see a professor having to give more than 40% A's in 100/200 level classes. So from a pragmatic viewpoint, I don't really envision too many brilliant kids being denied their just grades in a plot by an evil administration.</p>
<p>It might be going too far to say that I'm pro-grade deflation, but I understand the logic behind the policy's implementation, and can see that it's not baseless. And certainly, I don't see grade deflation as the villain so many on this board consider it.</p>
<p>Did you hear about the ORF 245 class this year? The professor felt strongly that more than 35% of the class should get A's, so he gave them the grades they deserved.</p>
<p>Malkiel reviewed the grades given out, and demanded the grades changed. Two people I know personally received lower grades because of that woman. Her time is up at Princeton. It is time for her to move on.</p>
<p>Talking to Princeton sophomores last year, they came to the agreement that none of them felt like they had ever received a grade lower than they deserved because of the grade deflation.</p>
<p>Ivyboy05- Thankyou for the astonishing Malkiel episode which demonstrates why administrators should not be able to interfere in the grading process. Students and parents need to be forwarned with these examples before they enter into the ivy system.</p>
<p>Yes, it is a good example of a great flaw in the system. Its a bad system. But definitely not a reason to not attend Princeton. This is a rare case, but in the end, she threatens profs with tenure options and other such measures to implement her policy. </p>
<p>If only the student body would muster the courage to do something about it!!!!</p>
<p>the professor who taught ORF 245 was a visiting professor who might not represent the best example of the policy in place...
that being said, he was probably right in his assessment of the success-rate of his students</p>
<p>Right. I've heard that story before from a friend or two, but every account I've come across is kind of one-sided, let's-support-whatever-facts-support-me kind of thing.</p>
<p>Like I said, I'm still uncomfortable with the policy, and I hope Malkiel and Friends are being fair to the professors and students.</p>
<p>Indeed he was a visiting Professor (tenured) from Williams and as such it's difficult to see what Nancy could hold over his head to make him change his grades? Apart from which that's not how it works, it's administered by department chairs on a department wide basis.. Frankly it's not changed the way I grade, like most faculty in the sciences. When we voted for the system it was to introduce some equity in the system. All med schools and Law schools know the ropes and were consulted before the decision was taken. Honors are still determined by departments in the same way they always were, unlike Harvard we never did give out 90% honors! The grading system won't have any negative impact on Princeton students.</p>
<p>Thats fine, but if a law school were given the choice between a Harvard or Yale student with a 3.7 or a Princeton student with a 3.4 and accompanying letter saying that there is a grade deflation policy...</p>
<p>who do you honestly think they'll choose.</p>