Graduate School????

College Majors Musical Theater Major
1

<p>As I just posted on the NYU vs CMU thread...</p>

<p>Everyone has different opinions. Last night I had dinner with a playwright who was a friend of one of my drama teachers (Gotta love networking!). When discussing my quest to get into a BFA program, he felt that most people these days were getting MFAs anyway, so it would be more helpful to have a more well rounded education in many areas (not just MT) so that you were qualified for a variety of jobs to make ends meet when not cast in a show.</p>

<p>I haven't given graduate school a single thought so as to keep my mind from exploding, and I certainly have not changed my outlook or plans of getting a BFA in MT from this one conversation. Nevertheless, I thought it would be interesting to hear what others thought on the matter.</p>

2

<p>My daughter has been told the same thing by quite a few people "in the business". As much as she wants to pursue a B.F.A. in MT, I would love for her to be able to experience as much as possible in college....literature, history, maybe even science and math (!!!)
Although many M.F.A. candidates have B.F.A.s, it's not a prerequisite. Maybe this will give another option to those that are torn between the B.A. vs. B.F.A.
Now, let's take out more loans for grad school!!!</p>

3

<p>I have also been told that it would be helpful to take liberal arts courses while in undergrad programs and concentrate on MFA while pursuing a graduate degree. This way it gives you more options if the acting thing doesn't exactly work out and also makes you a well rounded individual. That is why some people do not like the conservatory approach and would rather go to a school that has a strong theater dept but allows one to also take classes in other disciplines. You never know....you might find out you would rather be a lawyer or psychologist or teacher or whatever, who happens to like to sing, dance and act.</p>

4

<p>St8gemom, nice to see you posting again. </p>

<p>This topic has been discussed time to time on this forum (things go in cycles of course as kids move into a certain stage...oops, no pun intended....of this process). </p>

<p>My feeling is this.....first you have to figure out what you want to do. There are surely options. One of course is the BFA which involves a professional degree program. But pursuing a BA, possibly followed by a MFA is an option for those who want a broader education. </p>

<p>However, SOME BFA programs include and allow for quite a bit of liberal arts or even other minors or double majors. At the least they offer an education beyond the professional training.....Examples are (but certainly not limitted to): NYU, UMich, Penn State. Some feel that a good actor benefits from having a broad education. As much as my own child craves the professional training in her area of passion (MT), she also enjoys and wants to learn about other things to become a more educated person and it is one attraction of NYU's BFA program for her. </p>

<p>One thing I don't totally agree with, however, is the notion that you need to get a degree in something else in order to be qualified for jobs upon graduating in case you don't get cast on stage (or while auditioning). But I feel a couple things here...one is that a BFA IS still a college degree. Often in the work world, the undergraduate major is not the thing that leads to a job but more that many jobs simply want an educated person. Getting a BFA degree, particularly one from a college that included significant liberal arts as well, is still a person with an education who could do many jobs. Another thought of mine, at least with regard to my own child, is that while her passion and goals involve performing, she really can do and likes to do other facets of theater...such as writing, directing, musical directing and choreography and so a person with a BFA degree who is skilled at various theater aspects, can possibly get work in some facet of the industry if not as a performer. Lastly, I think one should follow their passion and study what they wish and it is about getting an education at this point, not just job training. If a BFA in MT is one's passion, you gotta go for it. You can't fear the what if's about not getting a job on stage. You get educated at your area of interest and make a go of it. If you do not make it on stage, your life is not over, you can still get a career because you still have an education. And well, there is always grad school, lol. I have another child in college now and I am not so concerned about her college major and if she is going to have her career in that area for certain. I just know that college is an education that serves one well. Jobs and careers want those with educated minds and it is not so crucial what the major has been. I think one should choose a major based on interest, and not always what job it may lead to. </p>

<p>Music Man, I think it is wise that you are networking and talking to others in the industry to glean many perspectives. You don't sound easily swayed, which is GOOD and one concern I do have is that sometimes people discourage young people from going into this field cause it is so hard to make it and so forth. But you don't know til you try. Further, if it is in YOUR BLOOD, you can't NOT do it. Nothing is forever. You don't make it? So, you do something else, possibly related, possibly not. The training and the degree will always be a part of who you are and I doubt you'd regret it. If you want this, go for it no matter what anyone says (my point of view). </p>

<p>Susan</p>

5

<p>here is what doctorjohn said on the drama thread.</p>

<p>Is an MFA necessary? </p>

<hr>

<p>Some time ago, Catherdingmom asked about the necessity of the MFA for students who’d completed a BFA. Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to the thread.</p>

<p>Cat, I suspect that what lurks behind your question is thinking about seven years of tuition as opposed to four. Do students <really> need the additional three years of training if they've been through an intensive BFA program?</really></p>

<p>I wish I could give you a more definitive answer, but in truth, it all depends on the individual actor. In my experience, the BFAs with the most immediate success are the MTs because musicals by their very nature have larger casts. There is work for recent BFAs in MT, especially in national tours. The ACTs, on the other hand, often struggle for a while before they start getting work, because they’re competing for a much more limited number of ingénue roles in “straight” plays. That’s why many of them gravitate to cities with an active theatre scene where they can work in smaller theatres (Chicago, Seattle, etc.) or they head to LA to try to find work in film and television, or they create their own companies. None of these are necessarily bad routes to take, especially when you’re young. They may, after a few years, decide they want the MFA and, as Alwaysamom correctly notes, head back to school after gaining some life and theatre experience.</p>

<p>On the other hand, my good friend John David Lutz at Evansville believes that since baby BFAs are not likely to get much work for two or three years anyway, they might as well be in graduate school where they can get more training, playing time, and end up with a terminal degree which would eventually allow them to teach at the college level. He and I don’t disagree about this, except in his feeling that it applies to all BFAs.</p>

<p>The <training> value of the MFA, for a student who’s been through an intensive BFA program, lies in three things: continued work on the voice, continued work on the body, and work in the classical repertoire. No one in Music would ever suggest that someone with a Bachelor of Music degree in Voice (or any other instrument) was finished with his or her training. Four years is not enough time to master an instrument, or to have learned enough classical repertoire. The parallel in the theatre world applies to actors who want to perform Shakespeare and Chekhov at major regional theatres. They need that additional training, at some point in their lives. But it isn’t necessary for everyone.</training></p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

6

<p>I agree completely !!Thanks for saying it so well.</p>

<p>As for myself (and many years ago!) I didn't REALLY learn my craft until I was studying post college theatre at the American Conservatory Theatre's 2 year advanced training program. Now it is strickly an MFA degree program and, I believe right up there with Yale as one of the best.(I am partial)</p>

<p>It often takes marurity on the artist's part before they can really learn the finer points of their craft. ALthough I thought I knew everything after undergrad! Think of how much more focused and mature we are at 23 than 18! </p>

<p>Also, on that point of age, most students are waiting now until they have worked in regional theatre and summer stock and been around a bit before they audition for MFA programs. It is incredibly competitive. Lots of applicants are in their late 20s.</p>

7

<p>On double majoring: </p>

<p>I have to say that it is awfully hard to do successfully. A school like NYU has very rigorous academic demands. If you want to make a mark at Tisch, it is so competitive, you have to spend an enormous amount of hours and effort to rise to the top. Especially your Junior and Senior year. You will want to get the best directors' attention, the best summer opportunites, best roles, the senior showcase, ect. Juggling that with the demands of another major would just about kill you. And very hard to keep an "A" average in your other major, if that is important to you. Although I am sure it has been done by some superman or superwoman. </p>

<p>I have a student currently at USC who is managing to double major, but she is in the BA acting program, not the BFA. That could be the difference right there. </p>

<p>SMU recommends against it because it is almost impossible to double major because of the demands in their BFA program. Especially if you want to "have a life"</p>

8

<p>Mary Anna, I tend to agree with you because a BFA is quite encompassing and needs a lot of attention. Double majoring might be doable but difficult. My feeling, however, is that if someone wants a broader education but still a BFA, they might opt to go to a program such as the one at NYU (again, there are others) because they can still take a number of liberal arts courses, and perhaps if they truly want to, minor in something else. I know a Tisch student who completed pre med requirements and another with a minor in gender studies. But even without a minor, there are opportunities to study courses beyond the BFA program and to become an "educated actor". That might be appealing to certain kinds of kids who want to continue learning in broad areas beyond their professional training. I know my own kid enjoys coursework in humanities areas and looks forward to that at college in addition to her passion for her artistic training. There have been times when she has combined her work as a performer in the arts with areas in the humanities or even using her "art" to affect change (such as political activism). So, that is why I mentioned the notion of a BFA degree CAN include some broader education at some insitutions for those who like to embrace academics and general knowledge which in turn likely helps to become a better actor who has more to draw upon in their acting. Others find strictly conservatory as the way to go and want to forego academic subjects and those kids should go for it. It is about fit for what you want in the college experience. For some a BA is the way to go. That's why I like to encourage kids to not pick out BFA programs based on name or prestige but more about which program truly fits their personal criteria, goals, desires, and preferences. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

9

<p>In a recent discussion two points were made:</p>

<p>1-If you really want an MFA in MT, you shouldn't get a BFA because an MFA is just more of the same [I am paraphrasing but essentially that is what I took out of this part of the conversation].</p>

<p>2-If you got your BA or BFA from a particular school, in all likelihood a student would not be considered for the MFA program at the same school; something about diversity in the graduate student pool.</p>

<p>Thoughts? Comments?</p>

10

<p>I think that a truly worthwhile BFA in Musical Theatre program will be teaching essentially the same skills as an MFA - but the MFA will be much more intensive and comprehensive (no gen eds to consider in the mix at the MFA level) and will give the student three more years of maturity. So in answer to your question, I suggest that if you want/need the MFA (see below) that you do both - get the skills and training to be competitive in entry to the MFA programs (VERY few in the nation!), and then go for the MFA.</p>

<p>The MFA is really geared toward two types of students:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Those who didn't receive adequate training in their undergraduate program to sustain a career.</p></li>
<li><p>Those who want to teach at the college/university level.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>If you attend one of the top BFA programs, you likely won't need the MFA as you will have learned all the skills already...time to go apply them in the real world.</p>

<p>If you hit a "glass ceiling" in the real world and realize that continued education is required to advance, then you might consider going back for the MFA.</p>

<p>I did a BFA in Musical Theatre, then an MFA in Acting (with added directing electives), as I was preparing to teach solely in a professional training program at the university level. Otherwise, I would have gone straight from the BFA program and worked...and had the training to do so.</p>

<p>In answer to your undergrad to grad at the same school, they likey won't accept one of their own students into the grad program - because of my earlier point...if the student has earned the BFA, they have all the skills that the same school's MFA program will teach them. The teachers are the same; the curriculum is strikingly similar; and the training approach and pedagogy is the same. So what would another three years there offer you? They may say they want diversity, but what they really want is the undergraduate who is well prepared to go on to NEW discoveries, learning environments, teachers, etc.</p>

<p>eve</p>

11

<p>Eve, you have been IMMENSELY helpful and a great resource on these forums, particularly as you can speak from the perspective of someone who directs a BFA program. I am wondering if you could share which schools you attended for the BFA and the MFA as then we also might have someone who can shed light on whichever programs those were (if you were willing in context at some point). On this site, we have so many applicants and their parents and it is always great when we hear from those either IN the programs now or who have attended them. Just a thought. I have learned lots about Cal State-Fullerton from your posts and I imagine you know lots about whichever BFA and MFA programs you attended.
Susan</p>

12

<p>Eve,
Thank you so much!!! That is exactly the clarification we needed.</p>

13

<p>Hi, Susan:</p>

<p>I don't mind at all. I'm very proud of the education I received.</p>

<p>:)</p>

<p>I earned my BFA in Musical Theatre from the University of Arizona in Tucson (I had an out-of-state tuition waiver scholarship - a real blessing!), and went directly into the MFA in Acting program at Cal State Fullerton (where I am fortunate enough to teach now, after 10 years teaching and working professionally in the midwest and southwest.</p>

<p>eve</p>

14

<p>Another challenge I can address: non-traditional students and/or those who are parents.</p>

<p>When I entered the UofA, I was a 29-year-old single mother with a three-year-old son (a unique challenge in relation to study in an intense program such as the BFA).</p>

15

<p>You TRULY had the "double" major! WOW. You are such an asset to this board.</p>

16

<p>Eve, thanks so much for sharing that. The kids I know in the East do not tend to have U of Arizona or Cal State Fullerton on their lists and it is interesting for me to learn more about the schools away from the Eastern seaboard. I will share with you that in the professional production of Bat Boy that my D just finished, the guy playing Bat Boy who was cast in NYC, was a graduate of U of Arizona's BFA about two years ago, and he was very good. </p>

<p>I also want to say that I very much admire you for earning an undergraduate and graduate degree as an adult and as a single mother. You are a success story. I am familiar with that because I have taught at two adult degree programs at colleges where many students were like you were and had families/kids and often a job as well. These were some of the most motivated students of all. Kudos to you for all you accomplished while rearing your child. </p>

<p>Susan</p>