<p>Don't feel bad about sharing your story. Every family experiences some degree of drama over this issue. Its a time when we as parents must let go and give our children permission to follow their own path. The majority of us would likley choose a different school than our child picks but thats a testiment to our success raising independent children. Maintaining a solid relationship during this transition is paramount and your husband would feel terrible if he pushed her in a direction she was not comfortable with and she was unhappy or things didn't work out. Since he has not shared his recent views with her its quite possible that cooler heads will prevail and his opinions will mellow as the dust settles. Besides the competetiveness of PSU's BFA program most people know that getting into the main campus, Univ. Park, for Freshman year is only offered to the top 25% of applicants so its a lot more challenging academic environment than the total PSU picture which includes about 6 small extention sites. It seems that having her so far away is the point of contention. WE can all sympathize with that although we all know that the number of trips home is pretty much the same if your child is a two hr drive away or across the continent. (Basically Holiday breaks and Spring Breaks) It sounds as though he loves her very much and will miss her terribly. Imagine if she ended up resenting him over this....he'd miss her more since that would create a greater distance (in the relatonship) than any number of miles. Take a breath and see if things don't improve over the next couple of days as the surprise of the acceptancev letters wears off.</p>
<p>Also agree with Northstarmom. Dr. Phil covered this subject with a family earlier this week. Simply, dad certainly gets a vote where money is concerned. He gets to hash out with mom how much they can comfortably contribute. But he doesn't get to decide he wants to keep her closer to home. She's an adult and he many need help letting go.</p>
<p>It's nice that Grinnell is thoughtful enough to ask parents to let the kid decide. Before starting this process I had no idea how many parents thought they should get a vote past money for a normal child.</p>
<p>Zagat, like you, my eyes were opened on CC a long time ago, and even amongst some of my kids' contemporaries, of how many parents seem to have a big say or big influence as to where their children go to college (besides the money aspect) and I had no idea either since it came naturally to me to let my kids decide where they wanted to go. I have had people ask me where I want my kid to attend and I had never quite thought of it that way. I just want each one to figure out where she wants to go, based on where she was admitted. Their list was their own and their decision was their own. I had no strong feelings one way or the other ...except to want to see them happy (I prayed they'd get choices they'd be happy with). I really had no idea so many parents influenced or even told their kids where to go to the degree I have since learned. But apparently this is quite common. My husband did not see my first daughter's college until we dropped her off on her first day! Our kids told us which school they picked and that was that. I have been involved in their process all the way through but never as one to persuade about one school or another but just to help them arrive at each step. </p>
<p>I feel for TaraMom because I hear her as someone who wants to go with her daughter's desires and that her spouse, who of course loves his daughter dearly as well, has his own ideas of what D should do and may want to be more insistent about his desires. Then again, I don't know the whole picture because Dad may just be confiding in Mom behind the scenes but may not be that insistent when talking face to face with his daughter who he likely would not want to end up very unhappy (and who knows if she has yet to articulate that face to face to dad yet either). I think if this gets to be a contentious situation, a counselor could aid in facilitating a thoughtful discussion of concerns on both "sides". I don't like seeing mom have to feel in the middle. I feel for her. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>We never know another's full picture, perhaps dad handles the finances and knows better what they can afford. Or maybe he sees better than the mom that seperation is a big issue for the daughter. Then again it's always possible he just wants what he wants.</p>
<p>But the stated concerns here are astounding! So what if the kid can't go home for Thanksgiving, she'll have a great adventure going home with a classmate. And while I would take a secind job or hike to the school for parent's weekend, I don't think it would destroy an adult offspring for me to miss it. </p>
<p>Then there are the parents who insist their kids will be coming back after graduation. Oh brother! This board could really use a resident shrink!!</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>what should a family do when they can't agree?</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Ultimately, this is the student's decision. If finances are an issue, then the parents should specify what they are willing to pay. If the student chooses a more expensive school, then the student will have to make up the difference.</p>
<p>Parents should certainly share their experience and perspective, and advise the student as best they can. Sometimes students make really dumb decisions, like following a boyfriend or girlfriend to an inferior school, or even not attending college for the same reason; I'd expect parents to make their case reasonably forcefully in this kind of situation. But in the case of College A vs College B, I'd expect the student to be the decision maker.</p>
<p>Personally, I'm nearly always in favor of students attending a college that's well beyond easy driving distance. College is a time when students can learn to live their own life while doing so in a somewhat controlled and structured environment. If they can come home on weekends, or if Mom & Dad are visiting every few weeks, they aren't really making that transition. Going away to school means learning to do your own laundry, deal with illness without Mom to nurse you, and make your own choices about things large and small.</p>
<p>I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the book, Letting Go: A Parents' Guide to Understanding the College Years by by Karen Levin Coburn & Madge Lawrence Treeger - don't walk, run to your local bookstore & get this book. It's often hilarious, but really deals with parental concerns as their "baby" goes off to college.</p>
<p>Echoing the Grinnell comment, when we attended Columbia U's admitted students weekend some years back, a prof talked to the parents to emphasize the same point. The student is going to live with his choice of undergrad school for the rest of his life, and it's his decision to make (for better or worse). Share your advice, explain how much you can contribute financially, and let the student decide. Good luck!</p>
<p>There are so many parents on this forum that remind me of my Mom when I left for boarding school at 14. She would call me mornings, from 1000 miles away, having checked my local weather to make sure I put boots on! She knew all the details about my school's sports performance!! She thought I should come home for every break when I had great offers to see how my friends lived all over the world!</p>
<p>That first Thanksgiving my sister and I sat her down and told her it was time to get her own life. That we appreciated her being a great mom but knowing every detail about our school fell into the obsessive category. We marched her down to the local gym, made her sign up for classes and the rest is history.</p>
<p>Mom let go and got a life. She's in better shape than she was when in college. She met a great guy. She has new hobbies. It's so great!!</p>
<p>Even though Northstar's therapist suggestion has a ring of LA-LA land, I'd second the idea.</p>
<p>In the back of my mind, I have a feeling this particular arm-wrestle has nothing to do with D or her education. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>If it was my father, it would have been all about the money; (a depression baby who does not believe he has enough money even when his tax bracket tells him otherwise). When I was accepted into Private U, he went bananas and tried to stop me. I went anyway. 25 years later, we love each other to bits--ie, he got over it.</p></li>
<li><p>If it was my brother, it would have been all about the control, keeping the kids nearby so he could keep them dependent. That strategy has completely backfired on him with his eldest, but he's gonna try it again on his youngest kids. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Both of these 'hidden' agendas would have popped up in various guises dozens of times through a long marriage.....</p>
<p>btw, I didn't hire a therapist to convince my Dad. I sweettalked his mother, (my grandmother) and she gave him a good talking to. </p>
<p>Mind you, I did pay for half the tuition cost in the deal, but the independence was soooooo worth it.</p>
<p>Though this does not cover the core issues here. . . there are so many opportunities in Southern California for someone with tech theatre skills I'd give UCLA heavy consideration. Along with theatre opportunities there are lighting, audio and production opportunities with tv, commercials, touring musical artists, Disney etc.</p>
<p>Therapy:
I think we are at the point where it will be useful for us, or at least I dont see how it can hurt. Having an objective third party help us separate the rational from the emotional has to be of some good. It just seems like no matter where our D ends up going, * one * of them is going to be deeply hurt or resentfuleither her or my husband. And I cant live with that for 4 years or more. Their relationship has needed improvement for a long time and I dont want this step to make it irreparable. The good thing is, he is open to the idea so I will see about getting an appointment asap. I also think it will help D to sanity-check her decision and understand a little bit about where we are coming from. If by chance she is avoiding something at UCLA, this should help expose that, too.</p>
<p>Dream School
This is interesting. I can tell you her dream school and it isnt PSUits CalArts. That is the school she aches for, dreams for, and lives for, but with tearful determination, will likely turn down. The reason is, she has decided it is a better place for her graduate (MFA) work than her BFA. In her line of theater work, if you intend to go to grad school, you dont want to do both grad and undergrad in an arts/conservatory type school. So if she really wants that specialized type of school she needs to save it for the end, and take the broader-based training as an undergrad. I have to commend her thinking on thisit is like saying I will wait to have my dessert till after Ive eaten my vegetables. So no, she has no particular romanticism for PSUshe cold-bloodedly looked over the schoolfrom analyzing its curriculum, to visiting the school, to sitting in on classes (and she has exclaimed how much she learned from those alone) before deciding this one fit all the necessary criteria. She already has developed a great relationship with the professors there and is eager and ready to spend the next 4 years working with them. She has not met any of the UCLA staff, but based on her interview, has not been favorably impressed.</p>
<p>The Money:
I do not feel the money difference is a huge issue for us. Of course I would prefer to spend $18k instead of $28k, who wouldnt? However choosing PSU over UCLA will not put us greatly into debt or be a severe hardship. My husband I think is using that issue as an excuse. I know for a fact that if CalArts were to offer her a full ridemaking * that * the cheapest schoolhe would still find a reason to choose UCLA over CalArts. We are already spending over $20k/yr on her private school now because we wanted the best possible education for her. (And of course, one of the reasons we chose private school was to learn to be assertive and independent and to think for herself, so I think we got very good value for our money! :) But as I mentioned, I agree she should take some responsibility for the added expense of an OOS, and work part-time and look diligently for scholarships to supplement.</p>
<p>Selectivity of the schools:
We truly believed our D had very little chance at getting into most any university with her stats. Her grades were good, but not stellar. Her SATs never broke 1100. All she had was this passion for theater tech which developed out of the blue about 2 years ago. So thats why she planned to apply to 11 schools and had Cal State Long Beach as her safety. We were going to be thrilled if she got into 1 or 2 others beyond CSULB. However she never even got to * send out * her application to CSULB in November because the acceptances from the other rolling schools started rolling in. We were thunderstruck when one, then two, then three professors called her and commended her on her strong portfolio, and the admission letters started coming and coming
.
I am told that if there was such a thing as a royal flush in theater schools, she got it. The roster of acceptances besides PSU and UCLA are: University of Cincinnati Conservatory of Music (CCM), CalArts, Savannah College of Art & Design, North Carolina School of the Arts, and Purdue U. Now I think only theater people like soozievt recognize some of these nameseven Id never heard of these before last year. So believe me, I quite understand if many of you, like my husband, dont see these as holding a candle (based on name and ratings) to UCLA. </p>
<p>Final thoughts:
1) UCLA is going to have an all-day open house later this month for Theater students. They will get to meet the faculty, tour the facilities, and get a full review of the curriculum, including the so-called freshman experience (the 1st year program). They will also have an opportunity to select a class in session they want to visit. I think I will insist that D go to this, just to be sure she is not closing any doors unnecessarily.
2) There is no question that Im sure my husband wants the best for his daughter, its just that they have two different ideas what that is. Hed rather have his heart cut out Im sure than imagine her having to wade through snow, far from home, and for a degree in something thats far from a sure bet in his eyes. Hed much rather have her where he knows the turf, has a feeling shes safe, and with a degree that is much more transportable. I dont blame him for thinking this and for the knee-jerk genuflection for UCLA. But I do feel that he is clearly not as expert in D in evaluating these schools since his heart isnt in this, and hers certainly is. It is a very superficial comparison he is making, and she has gone to great lengths in hers. So I really believe it should stay her decision, her outcome and her consequences.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I really believe it should stay her decision, her outcome and her consequences.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Tara, you sound stronger and wiser with each post. I think the situation will right itself.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>TaraMom, I admire you SO much. You seem like a very intelligent woman, besides being a very supportive mom. You are truly looking at it from all angles and perspectives, but you realize that ultimately the choice for a certain college when a kid is 18, should rest with the child's choice, not the adult's (money issues aside, and I agree the money is not the main obstacle here from your description). </p>
<p>I want to also congratulate your duaghter on a slew of amazing acceptances. Clearly she has talent in this field. I mean she did not get in on SATs, etc. Her portfolio must have shined so much to get into those places. I mean CCM and CalArts! What an affirmation. Your daughter also sounds like a very wise child who has been very thoughtful about what she wants and is looking at long term goals. The way she has thought through the undergraduate degree and the graduate one is mature. I can understand why she has picked what she has. She got into two excellent conservatory programs but will get a broader undergraduate experience, yet have the BFA training. It seems like the happy medium here between a CalArts/CCM program and UCLA BA degree. The point is a fit for what she wants, not merely school "name". But I hear other issues might be in your hubby's mind such as the distance and all that. Ideally, all that might have been discussed BEFORE you agreed to this list of schools but at this juncture, I hope the final decision rests with your daughter. </p>
<p>I am happy to hear your hubby's openness to having a discussion with a third party. This is really great because it is less this person vs. that person and you in the middle. I think the discussion might be able to stick to the issues and this might really help. </p>
<p>I also think it is wise that your daughter go to the event at UCLA and see for herself whether it truly is the right fit or not for herself. Then she might be better able to articulate to dad why (IF) it does not fit what she is looking for. She will have gotten more first hand information. I know her dad has got to want to see his daughter happy and if for some reason she can articulate why that choice really is not what she was hoping for in a college, I can't see him ignoring that issue. </p>
<p>Good luck, hang in there...I think things will work out. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Forgot to reply to some other interesting comments: </p>
<p>
[quote]
Daughter applied to UCLA even though she'd rather drink poison. Father let daughter apply to Penn State even though he would never agree to send her there. Daughter applied to no mutually acceptable programs, and family did not insist that she do so.
[/quote]
I rambled a bit in my last post about the schools and never made my real point--she had not decided in her mind on which track--the BA or BFA--during the application period last fall. So she chose both BA and BFA programs, schools that were near and far, schools that were large and small, schools that had conservatory approaches and schools with traditional university curricula--shotgun approach. We thought this was such a crapshoot that she'd be lucky to get in one or two and that the decision would be practically made for us. She had a very objective mindset and didn't care really anything about the environment, just to pick the best program from whatever was offered. And in CA, I think just about everyone puts down UC schools because it's a common application, requires no recs, and it's practically in our backyard. She just didn't want to exclude anything, and again, we never dreamed the UCLA bolt of lightning would strike our house. If we had SOME idea in advance that theatre tech students were so in demand of course we would have made much narrower, more reasoned choices and done a lot of weeding out in advance.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It sounds as though he loves her very much and will miss her terribly. Imagine if she ended up resenting him over this....he'd miss her more since that would create a greater distance (in the relatonship) than any number of miles.
[/quote]
All I can say to this is, bingo, dogs......bingo.</p>
<p>To Cheers:
Yes I still think there is a tiny bit of hidden agenda of wanting to maintain some control and dependency, but thanks so much for your encouragement. Although I stated my desire about her future remaining in her control, I realize her decision will still impact US financially, emotionally and other ways. And when she's gone, we still have to maintain our marriage and not let that be an impact as well. There will be reverberations as I said no matter what choice is made, I'm just trying to minimize the damage as best I can.</p>
<p>Soozievt, what kind and warm words and I thank you so much for them and adding your insight about the BA/BFA process. Personally, I also like the idea of having the "university" experience in college so one has something besides just theater, theater, theater. Though she would get the best training at a place like NC or CalArts, that is "all" she will get. In a university environment she will be exposed to so much more that I do not feel will distract her from her theatre, but really more * enhance * her education and help her be a * better * technical designer.</p>
<p>TaraMom, to echo what you said... I work in Human Resources and over the last 20 years have interviewed hundreds of candidates who started life in a specialized degree program... they wanted to be vets 'cause they loved dogs; they wanted to be in fashion design 'cause they loved to shop; they chose a BFA program in dance but was diagnosed with a neurological disorder senior year and had to transfer to get a degree in Elementary Ed; .... you get my drift. As I hear the story of why they are now CPA's, Insurance adjusters, managers of corporate communications, et al, it strikes me that 17 year olds are not in a great position to decide how they want to spend their professional life. They may love the field but hate the training; they may love the training but dislike the peer group or the politics required to succeed in that field; they may love the field and enjoy the training but lack the charisma or the stubborness or the sheer ability to work the kind of killer hours that are required to suceed in a given discipline.</p>
<p>Maybe, just maybe, your husband is uncertain that your daughter's passion for this field will stick.... and in that case, if he believes that UCLA offers a broader range of options should she decide come jr year that it's not for her....he deserves to be listened to. The corporate world is filled with artists and poets and dancers and musicians who, for whatever reasons, wanted to or needed to switch direction, and the lack of a BA can derail plan B very quickly. A neighbor of ours is a talented artist, a RISD grad, with a wonderful artistic reputation but not enough financial security for her current family situation. She went to interview with our local school system and was told that without a BA she could not get certified to work as a Teacher's aid... RISD, the depth of her program, etc. notwithstanding.</p>
<p>TaraMom, that is why given everything you mentioned, that a program like the BFA at Penn State kinda satisfies lots of what your daughter wants. The CCM or CalArts programs are just the specialty training. A BA degree program does not have enough of the specialty training. But a BFA in theater design at a place like Penn State has the professional training that is specialized, yet also the liberal arts component, something to always have (an education!) for the future. In fact, I was struck by the fact that of all 8 BFA programs that my child auditioned at, PSU had the most comprehensive and stringent liberal arts general education requirements. My daughter wants a liberal arts component to her BFA degree because she likes other things and wants to be educated (which enhances her craft as well). That is one reason she would opt for a BFA at a place like NYU over a program like CCM, despite CCM being tops in her field. So, I can really see your daughter's reasoning on the BFA program in a setting LIKE PSU because it satisfies several of her preferences in her educational goals. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>TaraMom, Your thinking seems very strong, also your commitment to resolving the emotional dynamics. My take is that you will do the best possible job - the best possible outcome is a little out of your control but all you or any of us can do is our best.</p>
<p>Has TheDad posted? He iss an LA dad who thought his world might collapse when his D went East. He is a bit biased towards UCLA--expecially when compared to USC apparently.</p>
<p>I think he's found that he's enjoyed the empty nesting. He might have a good perspective a year on.</p>
<p>As for maintaining those decades long marriages...been there, done that, LOL.</p>
<p>My suggestion, for what it's worth, is that if the D, like me, doesn't have a really good feel for this field, things could be improved by meeting with one or more adults working in this field (not high school students trying to get into schools nor even parents of such students) who could tell me from experience whether or not a PSU BFA trumps a UCLA BA, and why.</p>
<p>I defer from discussing therapists or other third parties to deal with what may be non-academic issues. Doesn't seem to me, however, that the discussion would be complete without facts about the profession.</p>
<p>This sounding board is so instructive as well as helpful. My dad let me do whatever I wanted to major, I chose Medicine. He was however dead against my sister doing what she wanted, which was cosmetology. Instead he "forced" her to do Economics, that she hated, and wasted four years for nothing. I will not let that happen to my kids. As a parent and a father, I will respect their choices. Our job however is to lay open the whole wide world of choices before them, and let it to them to pick and choose.</p>
<p>Tara, First, congratulations to your daughter!!! She sounds wonderful and strong and I am sure she will succeed where ever she goes. I don't have much advice on this issue except to perhaps set a "cooling off" period for a week or two where this will NOT be discussed or even mentioned in the family. Then, maybe you will all be able to see a bit of this from each others points of view. </p>
<p>I suspect that when the decision is finally made by your daughter, her father will take a deep breath and be fine with it. Sure, he'll miss her but you can assure him that she'll be home at Cal Arts for grad school in a few short years. </p>
<p>Best of luck to you all!!!</p>