Harvard and Brown

Parents Forum
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<p>Well, I've been reading all your posts carefully, and been taking the advice to heart. Basically, I guess it all boils down to: VISIT. Which I will do.</p>

<p>I'm actually still waiting on two more schools that might be contenders, namely Columbia and Brandeis (only if they give me significant merit aid). However, Harvard and Brown have always been in my top 2-3, so it'll likely come down to either Harvard-Brown or Harvard-Columbia. Or who knows, I might be rejected. Would sure make my decision easier!</p>

<p>Thanks for all your thoughtful answers, especially alumni of either school. </p>

<p>NJres: I'm not really sure. I'm no academic superstar by a long shot. I have an inkling that my karate involvement (which sounded on paper a lot more impressive than it actually is) may have something to do with it, or my truly, truly fantastic interview. My Brown interviewer loved me so much she offered me an internship! :) Besides that, I can only speculate since I'm not a recruited athlete...</p>

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<p>Just to comment on Sac's post:</p>

<p>Harvard used to require students to declare a major at the end of freshman year. Beginning this year, however, students are required to declare a major during the second semester of sophomore year, which is more in line with other colleges.
At most colleges where students do have to declare a major, it is still possible to change one's mind after declaring a major. My S at Harvard has a friend who has changed his mind about majors "every other week." But the fact that there are requirements focuses their minds a bit more. </p>

<p>What I reported came from a Brown student. My young friend's view is that while the curricular flexibility is great, it can tempt students to try one thing then another, then still another without a clear focus or core set of courses. My friend at Brown was a pre-med and so she had her curriculum pretty well mapped out. She felt that other Brown students who had a good idea of what they wanted to study were less likely to flit from one field to another. By the time they graduated, they would have a solid preparation in a field (or more).</p>

<p>It's hard for me to judge how intense either school is since I've not been an undergraduate at either and my S has no real way of comparing his experience with that of Brown students. He did note that the Brown students he met were the most relaxed and happy-looking. But it was a sunny day, different from the time he visited Yale or Columbia or Princeton, so who knows?</p>

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<p>Lingbo,</p>

<p>Congratulations on your likely letter! :)</p>

<p>I have one child at Harvard and one at Vassar (which, some may argue, is like a mini-Brown in the way its requirements are set up. Also, Vassar has a lot of the kids whose first choice was Brown, but they didn't get in, so the population is probably somewhat similar.)</p>

<p>That being said:</p>

<p>We visited Brown several times. My kids both loved it. The freshman room/dorm that we saw at Brown was lovely. In fact, we did not see that room on a tour, our visit was courtesy of a CC poster's child.</p>

<p>I do concur with Marite. My daughter's room at Harvard is smaller than any room I have ever seen. I don't just mean dorm rooms, I mean any room! However, I did see some of her friends' rooms in other dorms which were spacious and lovely. We'll see what next year brings, in that regard. Neither of my kids considered dorm rooms in their choices.</p>

<p>We visited Providence several times. In my opinion, you can't compare it to Cambridge. There is nothing like living in Harvard Yard. Cambridge is vibrantly alive, and it is literally out your door. </p>

<p>Many Harvard students do not like the Core Curriculum, which is in the process of being revamped. I can't speak for Brown, but Vassar students love having virtually no requirements. (They actually have a tad more than Brown students do.) </p>

<p>Harvard students used to have to declare their concentration (Harvardspeak for major) by the end of freshman year. The class of 2010 has until the middle of sophomore year. Even that is tough for many.</p>

<p>Harvard students have a lot of TFs (teaching fellows). Most classes have sections. However, the professors are great and are largely accessible if you reach out to them. The TFs are brilliant; many are close to their PhDs. Some are wonderful. Some are not.</p>

<p>The student body at Harvard is incredible. You will meet people from all walks of life and all types of national award winners. There are regular people who just did well in school too. There are a lot of rich people there. There are a lot of rich people at Vassar too. I have to imagine that Brown is no different. However, with Harvard's outstanding financial aid program, there are people from all walks of life. It doesn't seem to be an issue for anyone.</p>

<p>The advising system at Harvard leaves a lot to be desired. My daughter's friend (who has graduated from Brown) said that was her only complaint at Brown as well. Soozie would be able to speak better to this. </p>

<p>Although Harvard students can theoretically take classes at MIT, it is difficult because their academic calendars are not the same. (It can be done, though.) I believe that this is the same for Brown/RISD.</p>

<p>You should know that to get into any club/magazine/publication at Harvard you have to "comp" it. It's an interesting process - but you don't just walk on. That is especially true with the Crimson and the Lampoon. </p>

<p>My impression is that Brown is much more laid back. Don't let anyone fool you. Harvard is a tough school. You will hear that there is a lot of grade inflaction. It's not true. You'll also hear that the hardest thing about Harvard is getting in. Not true either.</p>

<p>My daughter loves Harvard. She did not apply to Brown. She had a really hard time giving up Columbia - she loved that too, and was as pleased to get in there as she was to get into Harvard. (Plus - they don't have classes on Fridays at Columbia ;) )</p>

<p>My son and I visited Brandeis twice - once before admission and once after. On the Accepted Students Day, we ate lunch with someone he knew there and a host of his friends. He did not feel any Brandeis-love from them. Of course, one table over it may have been different. There are happy people at every school.</p>

<p>Definitely visit them all. It sure is nice to have choices, isn't it?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Harvard is a tough school. You will hear that there is a lot of grade inflaction. It's not true. You'll also hear that the hardest thing about Harvard is getting in. Not true either.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thank you, Twinmom. My D is working her tail off at Harvard and is hardly cleaning up in terms of grades. She is incredibly happy, too.</p>

<p>Lingbo - My D also had Brown among her choices, and I am certain she would have been happy there, too. I think you will be happy no matter which school you choose, but it's important for you to feel that the school you eventually pick had an edge over the others, even if it ends up being for some silly reason. You need to feel that the choice wasn't random. </p>

<p>For my D, one of her thoughts was that she wanted to be around a very hard working group of students, and she was a little bit worried (quite possibly unjustifiably so) that there might be more laid back slackers at Brown, or at least students who tried to give the impression that they weren't working so hard. Whether it was a valid concern didn't matter, because it helped her make her choice, and she's extremely happy where she is.</p>

<p>(Also, as an aside about housing at Harvard, I guess my D was lucky; she shares an 300 square foot room with one other girl.)</p>

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<p>To clarify with regards to Marite: I certainly don't mean you can't switch your major at Harvard or that Harvard is particularly rigid in that regard. I only meant that those I've seen who have made best use of Harvard's unrivaled resources are those who enter with a particular passion and focus.</p>

<p>Every university presents its own opportunities. My philosophy is that students, knowing something about themselves , should pick the place where they can best envision grabbing hold of those opportunities.</p>

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<p>We, too looked at both campuses and the one thing that really struck me:
When walking around Brown, we saw lots and lots of students;
When walking around Harvard, we saw lots and lots of tourists.<br>
While this may seem trivial, it does have an impact on the quality of life and feel. When you are comparing 2 top flight school, either of which would be an excellent choice, you need to consider the feel, the atmosphere, the quality of life.</p>

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<p>Sac:</p>

<p>Funny how the same programs can be seen in diametrically different ways. My Brown friend thought that students who needed more direction would do better at colleges with distribution and major requirements than at Brown. You make the case that students who do not need such direction do best at places like Harvard where they can take advantage of all the resources on offer. I can see merit in both perspectives. </p>

<p>One thing Harvard needs to work on, especially now that students declare a concentration in sophomore year rather than in freshman year, is advising. I'm not sure how that's going to work out. And of course, I don't know how other colleges handle advising. But someone who does not yet know what to major in will need good advice.</p>

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<p>Marite: I guess my image of Harvard is forever influenced by a student I know who freshman year got the university to fund sending his whole first year seminar down to Latin America, by sophomore year was working at an institute with a professor, and by junior year was already advising a Latin American government. I can't think of another university where that is likely to take place. On the other hand, I know students who went through large Harvard departments (like economics) and came out feeling lukewarm about the experience, that what they got at the end in terms of education was mostly from fellow students. It seems like a place where it's easier to get lost as an undergrad than at Brown.</p>

<p>For students who do not know what they want to do, I've heard both arguments: it's best to go to a place like Brown with the fewest requirements, or a university like Columbia where you are exposed to a strong liberal arts curriculum no matter what your major. I buy both arguments, depending on the student. My S was attracted to a core curriculum (as well as NYC) and did not apply to Brown though a lot of his friends are now happy as clams there. He's been well served by the core for the most part.</p>

<p>I do think it's probably easier to coast at Brown than at either Harvard or Columbia. But there are plenty of Brown students who, instead of slacking, really make use of the independence to explore. I'm sure the requirements within majors are same pretty much everywhere. (Brown does have major requirements, just not GE requirements.)</p>

<p>As for where there is good advising, I really can't say. That's a weakness at Columbia, too.</p>

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<p>I agree that it's harder to get lost at Brown than at Harvard, especially in a large department like economics or government. I also think that students who want a multidisciplinary approach may be better served at Brown. Although Harvard allows students to construct their own majors, it does ask them to jump through hoops.</p>

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<p>I'll admit upfront that I'm very biased in favor of B(rown). I'll also admit that I'm a bit anti-H(arvard) for undergrad. I think that H is a great, great place to go if you really are a <em>star</em> in some field--as I gather Marite's son is in math. If you won the Intel or were on the USAMO team, you should choose H over B with no hesitation whatsoever. If you've already published a novel to critical acclaim, do the same. "Mother H" has resources unlike those of any other university in the world. </p>

<p>But if you are a "souped up" BWRK (bright well rounded kid), I'd suggest B. I think that faculty at B cares more about the "average" student--"average" by the standards of a top school--than the faculty at H. It's nearly impossible to go through B without getting to know a few professors well. It's VERY easy to do that at H if you are an "average" student. </p>

<p>For example, the dean of admissions at a top law school commented that many H grads applying to it ended up getting at least one (of the 2 required) letters of recommendation from teaching fellows. Now this was a TOP law school, so the H grads applying were definitely folks at the top of the class gpa-wise. At the same time, though, these weren't kids who were future academics--they weren't going on to get Ph.D.s in their concentration. Many of them couldn't get 2 faculty members to write recs for them. They had to get one from a teaching fellow. I honestly cannot imagine any B student having to do that. </p>

<p>A neighbor who recently graduated from H switched concentrations her senior year--so you definitely can. She said it was like experiencing two different Hs. Her first concentration is a very, very popular one. She really didn't get to know any of her profs. When she switched, she was in a small department and got lots of personal attention. (She had a VERY high gpa in both.) If you're planning to major in Sanskrit, I doubt H will feel impersonal. If you are planning to major in English, economics or government, it may. So, maybe that's something you should take into account too.</p>

<p>There's no "bad" decision here, though you may have some insecurity after you decide or even after you begin your freshman year about the choice you made. It's something called "buyer's remorse." It's possible that's why you are thinking of Brown now instead of just going with H. </p>

<p>I agree with everyone else about visiting--but I'd do it on a NORMAL weekend, not admitted students' weekend or day. The beauty of knowing now that you are into both is that you CAN go visit when the campus isn't mobbed with other students making the decision. </p>

<p>Good luck and congratulations!</p>

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<p>Actually, Jonri, I have to disagree with what you say about H. It is impossible for Harvard to have only stars among its 6,000+ student body. The students at H are a lot like the students at Brown and other top schools. Indeed, they are interchangeable, which is why the Revealed Preference study could be conducted in the first place: students were admitted at Harvard AND Princeton, or Columbia, or Yale, or Brown, and so forth. I strongly suspect that my S would have gone to Brown if Brown had been stronger in pure math (it's very strong in applied math) because he had such a positive visit there.</p>

<p>As for the H students getting letters from TFs: It's not that it is impossible for students to get great letters from profs; it's very likely that those students took very large classes in which the section leaders (TFs) got to know them well. Students are advised to take smaller classes and as I once read, 70% of classes at Harvard have fewer than 20 students. But 70% of students take classes that have more than 20 students. That is true for government and economics as much as Sanskrit. But the key difference between government, economics and Sanskrit is the advising from the departmental staff rather than the classes and the profs themselves.</p>

<p>Someone mentioned the tourists traisping through Harvard Yard all the time. It makes a difference, as does the fact that Harvard is not a real campus in a certain sense since it is mixed with restaurants, shops and banks. Another aspect to consider is size. It is larger than Brown and definitely feels less intimate than Brown. The smaller scale of Brown appealed greatly to my S, but he is comfortable with Harvard's size.</p>

<p>Such a nice dilemma to have!</p>

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<p>The comment about the "BWRK on steroids": I guess I am pretty much that. I've been told all my life that I'm a good writer, but I have yet to publish a bestselling novel. Academically (and perhaps I'm selling myself short, who knows), I do not even approach superstar status... I'm just a bright kid who worked hard in school, got A's, and had a ton of extracurricular activities. </p>

<p>Part of the problem is that I'm unsure what I'd like to study. For example, at Harvard, the sociology concentration is a rather small department. I've talked to a student or two concentrating in that area, and she had only positive things to say about profs/advising. However, it's highly likely I'll get there and realize Sociology is not my thing. So I would feel uncomfortable making a decision based on a shaky choice of major.</p>

<p>Ha, the tourists! I think they're funny. I was passing by a tour group in front of John Harvard's statue on my visit there after I was admitted. The tour guide was explaining why it might not be a good idea to touch the foot, even though it reportedly brought admissions success. </p>

<p>This thread is awesome for any CCer who's considering Brown or Harvard. I've never read such balanced, in depth advice on any Brown or Harvard forum! ;) Methinks it would degenerate into name calling.</p>

<p>Let me also explain one more thing: As I mentioned, I have visited Harvard after I was admitted. There were parts that I liked and parts that I didn't like, and I was highly sleep deprived/not in my right mind during parts of that visit. Then the bus ride home on the Fung Wah scarred me for life. That is why I'm giving Brown a fighting chance. I had some good times there - people were really nice. I remember having some great conversations about random things like East Asian history, this hilarious guy who beat boxed, and a study break session where we suddenly did an impromptu Cottoneye Joe dance. But there was definitely a heavy under/overcurrent of stress. The comping process seemed kind of brutal at times, and people there were stressing over their "blocking" groups, plotting how to break the news to one girl she wasn't part of their group. I'm hoping with warmer weather, Harvard will start looking better again; I <em>want</em> to want Harvard. It'd certainly be a choice I wouldn't have to justify to everyone.</p>

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<p>Forget the bus. Amtrak is the way to go!</p>

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<p>Yeah, the Fung Wah bus is cheap and scary.
Blocking is stressful as you have to choose whom to room with for the next three years. But to my mind, it is preferrable to not having a choice of roommates for the next three years, which happens at other colleges (I don't know how things are done at Brown). Once that's over, you can relax.
Comping, I understand, is very competitive. But new groups, new clubs are formed all the time.
If you want to do East Asian studies, it's a small, multidisciplinary major but part of a very large program, perhaps the largest in the country. For sociology, I'm told Yale is better. :(</p>

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<p>Blossom, I don't know any Harvard students who have the running the world personality - maybe that's more common in your business. Most of my friends majored in art or music or one of the sciences. I also knew a surprising number of future priests and ministers. </p>

<p>One plus for Harvard - if you ever have to hunt for a job overseas the name really will give you a leg up. Most of the time it feels like an albatross I'm not living up to.</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>That's the opposite of how my D approached Harvard. She just assumed she wouldn't like it and only decided to visit because she was visiting MIT for their CPW. I think expectations really color one's impressions. She had assumed she'd be crazy about MIT and would be put off by the atmosphere and students at Harvard. The impressions she got after visiting were completely different from her expectations. She was really astounded at how different the Harvard reality was from the impressions she had held. </p>

<p>I'd recommend not trying too hard to like Harvard and just be really honest with yourself about where you think you'll be happiest. Not happiest telling people where you go (as in, not worrying about justifying your choice), but where you'll have the most friends you really want to be around and where you'll find the academic atmosphere most to your liking.</p>

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<p>Soozievt, while it's true Harvard doesn't have an architectural studies major - a huge number of VES courses are Harvard School of Design courses. I took their entire sequence of architectural history. I had a intern from Harvard last year who also made his own major in architectural studies. I was also given the opportunity to start at GSD as a senior. I had my heart set on doing architecture in NYC so I didn't take them up on it, but that program may still exist. (It wasn't heavily advertised.) Havard's not a bad place to go if you want a M. Arch and an undergrad liberal arts education rather than a B. Arch.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'd recommend not trying too hard to like Harvard and just be really honest with yourself about where you think you'll be happiest. Not happiest telling people where you go (as in, not worrying about justifying your choice), but where you'll have the most friends you really want to be around and where you'll find the academic atmosphere most to your liking.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree with this totally.</p>

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<p>Since blocking came up I thought I'd mention that Harvard is one of the few schools that still hand matches room- and suite-mates. I don't remember where I read about this, but the picture I got was one of paper housing apps spread out all over an office with someone sitting in the middle playing matchmaker. They did a brilliant job for S and I expect that his freshman roommates will be lifelong friends.</p>

<p>Also, he had no trouble getting a prof's recommendation for a summer program, even during his freshman year.</p>

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<p>Mathmom, I knew that Harvard had History of Architecture for undergrads but didn't think it had any arch besides that. This was when my D was looking in early of her junior year of high school, now over four years ago. She surely will be looking to apply to HGSD and did a summer there two summers ago and loved it. She really wanted an undergrad liberal arts degree in architecture, not a BArch and thus will pursue a MArch. She's been able to "supplement" her Architectural Studies concentration at Brown with the summer at HGSD, a semester in an arch program in Florence through Syracuse, and by taking arch courses at RISD. She is very glad she opted to do a BA degree. One plus at Harvard in her eyes is that they have a Varsity Ski Team but so does Brown. </p>

<p>Living in Cambridge is so cool though and my D loves the area. My husband and I lived in Cambridge for four years back in our school days. I agree with Marite about how the Harvard campus is not really contained and is integrated with other streets and buildings and the general public on the campus. Brown isn't isolated either but the campus is a little more contained when walking to classes and such. The "other" stuff borders the campus on all sides but isn't so much integrated with the campus as at Harvard. </p>

<p>I think there are really interesting accomplished students at both these schools and a lot of the decision comes down to personal criteria and preferences and a general "feel" of the school and how that vibe fits with each person. Surely either school is a cool place to spend four years. They are different in some ways, however.</p>